myril
Veteran Detective
Merry One [/color][/center]
Posts: 795
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Post by myril on Apr 15, 2006 3:18:15 GMT -5
To me, the level of resentment Lilly has for Ellen seems to be more at the level I see in people who have divorced parents (which is also true in Ellen's case), and not to the larger level of people who were abused. Yes, this is a personal observation, though I still think its valid in interpreting Ellen and Lilly's relationship.....  Your turn!  1. I wouldn't define Ellen's actions as abusive, it was neglect IMO, but ask 10 lawyers and you get 30 different definitions of these terms. Ellen was/is an alcoholic, she had unstable and bad relations with men and she didn't give her daughters the care and attention they needed. 2. Why weren't Lilly and Christina taken away from Ellen? Well, it's a decision someone makes and this someone has to consider all pro and contras. I know from friends working in child-care here, that as long as they have any reason to believe that the parents might be able to care for their children with some help and support, giving children into foster care is avoided. The assumption is, that most parents don't really want to harm their children, they don't know how to deal with situations propper or live in difficult circumstances. Even if it might be for their best it is a shock for children to be taken away from their parents. Not to mention, that they for sure haven't enough staff to look after all cases as it should be. Mind, according to law there are a lot of instruments to protect children and still even today, in a time we're more aware of these problems, each minute, no second children suffer by parents or relatives. Just last year there was a case where a child famished, locked up in her room at home by her parents for months - and child care had a file about this family but didn't act. That case caused a lot of questions. I think after the attack child-care looked after Ellen and her daughters (for a while), but my assumption is, that they concluded, despite difficult circumstances it's better to leave the children with their mother. Guess they judged the attack and what led to it as a single incident. Could have been easy for the writers to make a more or less clear thing, but it's more realistic IMO the way it is. 3. I don't think, Lilly is dramatizing her past. But from a personal view it can look a bit different and feel different than looked at it by someone not being involved. Yeah, some people like to blame their parents for everything that happened, not only in their childhood but later as well, and some are exaggerating, agreed. But one thing is what you feel, another what you can understand. Even if you might understand after a while a lot more and even come to the conclusion, your parents tried their best, it doesn't mean your feelings, anger, sadness and others totally disappear. It's like that child you've once been, still exists incide of you - the adult might know, the child feels, if you get my meaning. And some gaps can never be bridged, some wounds might heal but still hurt. |
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Post by frenchfan on Apr 15, 2006 6:06:26 GMT -5
V, Boxman thank you for your answers.  Boxman wrote the grocer has no responsibility for a youth being out.I agree with you perhaps on the penal level, but morally I think his committed responsibility. Personally I would feel responsible haven't tried to see why a 10 year old child walked only the evening and came to buy alccol. But good, I can understand the indifference (even if I don't excuse it ) V wroteThe grocer could get some time in jail though. Selling liquor to minors carries a max 1 year sentence in PA and up to $2,500 fine. The same max sentence applies to any person who induces or requests a minor to buy liquor. Thus Ellen could also be condemned for that ? This legislation is a good thing, but she must be difficult to make apply? In France also the alcohol sale is prohibited for the minors, but the minors buy nevertheless!!!.(In fact the sanctions are not enough dissuasive.) (sorry again for my deplorable English  ) Myril I completely share your point of view and even if my English was better, I could not have better said.
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Apr 15, 2006 23:24:15 GMT -5
By the way, the sale of alcohol in Pennsylvania is very tightly controlled. I tried looking at the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board's official website for accurate laws regarding the sale of alcohol, but the site is made more for wine sales and I couldn't find more info there. So I'm going to have to do this at the top of my head... Hard liquor and wine are sold only through the PLCB's state stores, and they operate very conservatively. For a very long time, most stores closed at 8:00pm (9:00pm on Friday and Saturday nights), and never opened on Sundays or holidays. You can get beer, "malt beverages", and wine coolers from beer distributors and delis (e.g. season three's "Frank's Best"), but their hours are also tightly controlled too. Beer distributors tend to operate at regular retail hours (not past 8:00pm also, I believe); and IIRC, delis are not allowed to sell alcohol past midnight. Both businesses can't start selling alcohol until after noon on Sundays too. To get alcohol past midnight, one has to go to a bar, have it packaged "to go", and sometimes pay their retail price. Again, bars are limited to selling beer, "malt-liquor", and wine coolers; they are not allowed to sell bottles of wine or hard liquor. Most bars give discounts to those wanting to take-out alcohol, but you're still looking at about $10~$12 for a six-pack of domestic beer!! Bars close at 2:00am in Philly, so you can't get beer "to-go" past that point. (You can still buy alcohol within private clubs that operate past that hour, though. But that wouldn't apply to young Lilly's incident, of course.) I think its very likely that the writers will follow Pennsylvania's laws regarding the sale of alcohol. They tend to be exceptionally good at being accurate with Philly facts, so it would be unusual if they don't keep themselves constrained to PA's liquor laws. Anyway, if so, we can make some good educated guesses about Lilly's circumstances if she went out for alcohol and not drugs: The state stores are managed very professionally. So clearly, she would never be allowed into a state store without an adult, and I would bet the workers there will be highly responsible about looking after her. Beer distributors are independant of the state, but I also highly doubt they would allow a child to enter alone. They only sell alcohol, and a child would have no business being in there alone. A beer distributor would be highly suspicious of a child trying to buy anything there; they would suspect that it was a set-up by the police or liquor board. A deli (such as "Frank's Best") could be a likely place that young Lilly was sent to buy alcohol. But midnight would be the very latest that alcohol was available, and the deli owner would have to know both Lilly and Ellen very well to allow "bending the rules" in this way. Otherwise, he'd also be suspicious of her. There could be a very slim chance that she was sent to a bar to get alcohol "to-go", but I would also think that any bar owner or bouncers would send her out immediately the moment she stepped in there. Again, the bar owner would have to know Ellen very well to allow a young Lilly in there alone and make a purchase. Here's a link that give more info about Pennsylvania's unusual liquor laws: The Pitt News
I CANNOT believe you equated what Lilly went through as a child to your friends feelings. I know of people who were abused-neglected and they are definatley not selfish and self-centered. ... You can't "play" a victim when you are actually one. Don't you think Lilly was "ripped off"(at least her jaw was) by not having parents who are there for you.... , it seems that you've misread my statements and misunderstand the context that it was written. It was primarily a response to Sonny's reply #68 and partially a response to questions that both V and DisasterFreak have raised. Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my response, but these individuals were not abused, they just grew up with parents going through a divorce. Also, perhaps it wasn't clear, but these individuals I've met are very much an exception rather than the rule. I wouldn't define Ellen's actions as abusive, it was neglect IMO.... Ellen was/is an alcoholic, she had unstable and bad relations with men and she didn't give her daughters the care and attention they needed. , if it wasn't for the fact that she seems to have sent Lilly out for alcohol or drugs (as apparently revealed in "The Woods"), that's how I view the situation too. But sending out a child to get drugs or alcohol definitely brings the level of her neglect to fall into the legal definition of "abuse", as V points out. ... morally I think [it's the grocer's] committed responsibility [to a child]. Personally I would feel responsible haven't tried to see why a 10 year old child walked only the evening and came to buy alccol. But good, I can understand the indifference (even if I don't excuse it ) Well, understand, FrenchFan, that your original question regarded to the legal aspects of the situation, so that's how my response was directed. I think most shopkeepers would not be indifferent; they would say something to police. Many stores that sell alcohol are small, independantly-owned and owner-operated corner-stores. They tend to be visited regularly by cops who want to either get something to eat or to check up on things in the neighborhood during their absence. Again, there's a season three episode, "Frank's Best" that clearly illustrates how some delis like these are owned and operated. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Apr 16, 2006 3:50:44 GMT -5
Hey, I got to watch "The Great Gatsby" (the 1974 version with Robert Redford) and noticed a few other interesting tie-ins between the movie and Cold Case. Its a minor spoiler for the movie, but the character Gatsby is very interested in a woman named Daisy. About one-fourth of the way into the movie, we find out that they once knew each other eight years earlier and were thinking of getting married. Of course, the period of eight years is used in two episodes about people in love, "8 Years" and "Sanctuary". Any other episodes, perhaps?? And of course, the idea of two people in love but not getting married applies to Lilly and McRay's relationship, as it did Daisy's and Gatsby's. See the discussion here regarding unusual relationships between Lilly and Daisy.
The author of "The Great Gatsby", F. Scott Fitzgerald, is considered one of the best American writers of the twentieth century. I'm beginning to wonder how much influence he has had on this show. Its interesting to note how he always wanted to write novels, but only wrote four and an unfinished fifth novel during his lifetime. He earned most of his income from writing stories for Hollywood. In one of the few articles that I've found about Meredith Stiehm, she mentions something similar about wanting to write plays, but having to turn to television scriptwriting for a career.
Speaking of Meredith Stiehm, she shares the initials, "M.S." with the character "Mickey Stein", the internet dude. This is the second appearance (that I know) of the initials in the series. The other, of course, was the disease "Multiple Sclerosis" in the episode "One Night".
The wikipedia.org biography mentions that F. Scott Fitzgerald suffered from alcoholism and bipolar disorder. The alcoholism theme is explored with Ellen Rush in this episode and others; and the bipolar theme has been explored with the episode "Committed" (although Fitzgerald doesn't seem to have been hospitalized for this). Interestingly, "Committed" was written by Liz Garcia, who wrote this episode. She also wrote "Best Friends", another episode that had a very heavy alcohol theme throughout.
In one of the first flashbacks, we find that Violet didn't always have the cute bob haircut. "First order of business...the hair." This could be another tie-in to an F. Scott Fitzgerald story, "Bernice Bobs Her Hair", although (spoiler warning for the short story) the effect of the haircut on men are the opposite of each other in the story and episode. The short story can be read here.
It is unusual that "Bernice Bobs Her Hair" was made into a 1976 PBS movie and starred Veronica Cartwright. She appeared in the Cold Case episode, "Dog Day Afternoons". In fact, there are a handful of actors who have been both in an F. Scott Fitzgerald film and involved with a Cold Case episode: Robert DeNiro, mentioned in last week's "Willkommen", was a producer of the film "Rent" that Tracie Thoms was in. DeNiro starred in the 1976 film "The Last Tycoon", a movie based on Fitzgerald's fifth novel. Piper Laurie, played the elder "Rose" in the episode "Best Friends" (also written by Liz Garcia). Piper Laurie was also in "Tender Is The Night", a 1986 mini-series based on Fitzgerald's fourth novel. It's very sobering to think that this TV movie was never released to either videotape or DVD.... Joseph Campanella played Nelson in the CC episode "Factory Girls". He was in the 1987 TV movie "Tales from the Hollywood Hills", based on Fitzgerald's collection of short stories published in Esquire magazine. Finally, a bit of a reach, but Gary Springer was in Fitzgerald's "Bernice Bobs Her Hair", along with Veronica Cartwright. He was also in "Dog Day Afternoon"--the 1975 movie, not the recent CC episode.  Ohhh wellll...... |
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Post by Tati on Apr 16, 2006 16:20:25 GMT -5
Excellent episode. And a very interesting discussion you had here, boxman and V!
As for the neglect/abuse thing, I thought like Boxman, but after reading V's posts I guess I didn't have the concepts of neglect and abuse 100% correct.
As for why Lilly still lets Ellen into her life, and doesn't cut her out as a response to the abuse she suffered, I think it's because Lilly doesn't have a very high self-esteem. I always had the feeling Lil was uncomfortable with her loneliness, even though she never made any true efforts to change that (at least we haven't seen any on the show). She keeps up her walls most of the time, but then something makes her lose it and she caves in. I think Lil has a low opinion of herself when it comes to personal relationships, that her the relationships don't work out because she's the one with a problem, so she's the one who has to change. For me that explains why she took Chris into her house in the 2nd season, why she agreed to see her mom, and why she called Kite saying what she said, and why Lil still showed up at Ellen's wedding after the dinner fiasco.
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Post by sonny on Apr 16, 2006 16:31:38 GMT -5
That makes alot of sense Tati, and it makes me feel so sad for her that she could potentially think that about herself.  I was so shocked when I actually heard Lilly more or less say she blamed herself for the break up. All along I thought she blamed Kite and thought it was his problem. She's a real mess, bless her |
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Post by ecooper516 on Apr 16, 2006 17:03:47 GMT -5
Boxman,
Glad you cleared it up!
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Post by wildflower on Apr 21, 2006 23:33:14 GMT -5
Just because a child is abused or neglected doesn't mean the child is removed from the parents care.
In an ideal world they would be but I know in New Zealand (and I'm positive it happens all over the world), children are abused all the time and either put back in the parents care for another chance, they slip through the cracks or there is a stuff up in the agencies that are supposed to help.
So the fact Lilly wasn't removed from her mother after her attack doesn't really mean anything apart from the fact she was failed by her mum and probably others too, teachers, social workers etc.
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Athame
Loyal to Look Again
Hiding Duck
Do you like this pumpkin!?
Posts: 740
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Post by Athame on Apr 23, 2006 19:27:17 GMT -5
I don't know if any of you guys have read this, or if it has been posted previously (if so, then sorry, I must have skipped it), but on tv.com, someone posted a note on the original script for the phone scene outside the bar.
In the original version of the script, Lilly was supposed to make a phone call to Ray (his "motorcycle guy"), not A.D.A Kite. In the casting sides, Lilly's dialog goes:
"This is stupid. This is really stupid. It's Lilly. So, I'm just standing here in the freezing cold thinking about you buzzing around the corner and saving me. You know, you show up when I don't want you to, and then when I want you to just drive me away on that motorcycle, I have no idea where you are. Or who you're with. Ray."
For an unknown reason this was changed in the final version of the episode that eventually aired; it has been speculated that fans reacting negatively to Ray might have been that reason.
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Apr 23, 2006 21:47:39 GMT -5
What can I say? Awesomeness. We have power. My negativity has power? LoL.
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Athame
Loyal to Look Again
Hiding Duck
Do you like this pumpkin!?
Posts: 740
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Post by Athame on Apr 23, 2006 21:59:11 GMT -5
What can I say? Awesomeness. We have power. My negativity has power? LoL. Hehe  |
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Post by Ju on Apr 23, 2006 22:01:24 GMT -5
I'm not hoping Kite'll be back, but I'd rather him over Ray. ;D
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Apr 23, 2006 22:48:13 GMT -5
I would've hated to see/hear that dialogue, the original one. That would definitely have finished off the show for me. Instead what they did totally brought me back. I know the crew/producers don't give a damn about one fan, but I can't congratulate them enough. The actual phone call they showed was much more Lilly like. Wouldn't have had it any other way.
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Post by TVFan on Apr 24, 2006 11:13:34 GMT -5
I don't know if any of you guys have read this, or if it has been posted previously (if so, then sorry, I must have skipped it), but on tv.com, someone posted a note on the original script for the phone scene outside the bar. In the original version of the script, Lilly was supposed to make a phone call to Ray (his "motorcycle guy"), not A.D.A Kite. In the casting sides, Lilly's dialog goes:
"This is stupid. This is really stupid. It's Lilly. So, I'm just standing here in the freezing cold thinking about you buzzing around the corner and saving me. You know, you show up when I don't want you to, and then when I want you to just drive me away on that motorcycle, I have no idea where you are. Or who you're with. Ray."
For an unknown reason this was changed in the final version of the episode that eventually aired; it has been speculated that fans reacting negatively to Ray might have been that reason.Oh my gosh! That would have driven me crazy and I wasn't even all that negative toward Ray and Lilly. The final scene was a million times better than that initial scene. It made it so much more interesting that she called Kite and in a totally non-needy way. That first scene was way too needy and very un-Lilly like. Thank god they rewrote that! |
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Post by sonny on Apr 24, 2006 12:10:25 GMT -5
Oh my gosh! That would have driven me crazy and I wasn't even all that negative toward Ray and Lilly. The final scene was a million times better than that initial scene. It made it so much more interesting that she called Kite and in a totally non-needy way. That first scene was way too needy and very un-Lilly like. Thank god they rewrote that! On the surface I think 'ahhhhh that is really cute' and I feel so sad for her, but then thinking about what it was changed to I feel they made the right choice. I'm not saying that it would be majorly out of character for Lilly to get soppy when she was drunk cos she showed a different side to herself in the changed version anyway. But like you said those lines perhaps make her seem too needy. However I agree with TVFan that it did make the storyline way more interesting. We got to find out really how unhappy Lilly is this way and the potential for future storylines [and the possibility of Kite returning] is far greater. I'm also glad of course that this version renewed DF's faith in Lilly!! |
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Post by ewka on Apr 24, 2006 12:36:14 GMT -5
Oh, I wouln't like Lil calling on Ray at all. Like you said up -- it is more Lil-like :]
And if it is true that fans can so much influence the show then I am glad, even happy.
The only thing that was bothering me about "The X-Files" was that everything was done when I started watching it. I had no contact with writers, not that I have contact with CC writers now, but when I REALLY don't like something, I can hope someone important for the show will hear me whining and think about changing it :]
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Post by TVFan on May 17, 2006 10:54:21 GMT -5
For those of you who haven't seen the episode yet or for those who just want to relive the now-legandary scene, YouTube has video up of Lilly drunk dialing Kite. Lilly and the Cell Phone |
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Post by frenchfan on May 17, 2006 13:03:54 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the link TVFan  Even if I didn't seize all the words (my English is so bad), Kathryn is fabulous. Great art. I am in a hurry to see the episode in his totality.Waiting will be long |
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Post by Pixie on May 22, 2006 13:49:40 GMT -5
I have just seen it and I just love it ;D The music, the time, the fashion (which reminds me that I have to get one of those cool bell-shaped hats  ) & Ellen. It's quit creative the way the team solve this case. But there are still a few question that bothers me: 1) Why is Lilly calling Kite when shes saying that she's dating Ray. & 2) Why does Aimee (Is that her name  ) see Ginger? |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on May 22, 2006 18:49:08 GMT -5
For those of you who haven't seen the episode yet or for those who just want to relive the now-legandary scene, YouTube has video up of Lilly drunk dialing Kite. Great scene!! Meredith Baxter does an excellent Philly accent! Thanks for posting that link, TVFan!! |
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Ohhh wellll......
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) & Ellen.
) see Ginger?
