Ep. 3.19: Beautiful Little Fool

[V]

boxman said:

disasterfreak said:

Boxman... was Ellen abusive and neglectful? Hell, yes. Did she mean to? Probably no. She probably thought ...

Actually, maybe I should re-write my queiry. I can see the confusion in how I wrote it. Anyway I'm wondering what others think of this:

Do you think Ellen was abusive or neglectful, or was she a combination of both? Thanks.

Well, like sonny said, abuse is a form of neglect, so Ellen was abusive by being neglectful. You can't really distinguish those two terms, boxman. I don't think she was deliberately abusive, but she was deliberate in picking up the bottle which caused her to be neglectful; i.e., abusive.

[TVFan]

sonny said:

Anyway, moving on. Apart from looking amazing [which isn't hard for Kathryn] her acting was just outstanding [as always]. She played the episode to perfection and it amazes me that her drunk scene had me feeling she was cute, desperate, funny and yet really sad all at the same time. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry in that scene!

OMG sonny, you so nailed my exact emotions during this scene! I don't have anything to add because you said it so beautifully. Also:

Your blog feature is brilliant TVFan, and great piccies too

Thank you. :smile84: I love Mondays because I get to gush about the previous night's CC episode in my blog. :smile90: Of course, I had to include those caps because that scene was so brilliant!

Regarding Lilly and her mother. I really think that Ellen is just self absorbed and has been her entire life. She doesn't think about nor care about how her actions affect others and she never has. She sent her 10 year old daughter out to get alcohol for her in the middle of the night without a reservation and then referred to it as Lilly running off in the middle of the night. I know that Ellen loves to fill her life with things and then pretend to be happy, but I still think that it got to Lilly that night at the restaurant that her mother carries on the way she does and still finds ways to fill herself with the illusion of happiness. It's like she told Kite on the phone, she doesn't want to end up like that, but she also doesn't want to keep living her life emotionally closed off like she has been. I think Lilly was content at the end because she realized that this was her mother's idea of happiness.

What makes CC so interesting is its complex characters and their complex relationships. The relationship between Lil and Ellen is about as complicated as it gets, and that's why I can't get enough! I think that Lilly hates what her mother did to her when she was growing up, but loves her despite it. Afterall, she may be a complete dud of a mother, but she's still Lilly's one and only. I keep thinking about that interrogation scene in "Revenge" when Lilly brushed Archie's cheek the way her mother used to brush hers as a child. She said that she would have done anything for that, and I think that's what pulled her to the wedding. She may want to hate her mother, but she can't. And she can't begrudge her for finding her own idea of happiness, even if it goes against what Lilly defines as happiness. I think it's an inner struggle for her that somewhat manifested itself in that drunk message outside the bar.

[sonny]

Bravo TVFan :smile49: You've completely summed up what I was trying to get across earlier! :smile4:

[sonny]

A little treat for those of you that haven't seen it. The two landmark clips, where we first meet Ellen and then later that evening. Enjoy folks!!

Lilly meets Ellen in the coffee shop:

rapidshare.de/files/17746841/BLF1.wmv.html

Lilly gets drunk:

rapidshare.de/files/17749164/BLF2.wmv.html

Thanks to my 'source' for providing me with all the episodes. I'm forever in your debt :smile22: :smile41:

[ewka]

I voted for excellent, too. Because it WAS excellent More thoughts later.

[Ju]

You are quite right Ju! And it now seems appropriate to talk about that first, so excuse me while I gush about Kathryn Morris for a while!!

I knew it! ;D ;D

Oh, I voted the best of the season.

[soccerulz]

tvfan said:

What makes CC so interesting is its complex characters and their complex relationships. The relationship between Lil and Ellen is about as complicated as it gets, and that's why I can't get enough! I think that Lilly hates what her mother did to her when she was growing up, but loves her despite it. Afterall, she may be a complete dud of a mother, but she's still Lilly's one and only. I keep thinking about that interrogation scene in "Revenge" when Lilly brushed Archie's cheek the way her mother used to brush hers as a child. She said that she would have done anything for that, and I think that's what pulled her to the wedding. She may want to hate her mother, but she can't. And she can't begrudge her for finding her own idea of happiness, even if it goes against what Lilly defines as happiness. I think it's an inner struggle for her that somewhat manifested itself in that drunk message outside the bar.

EXACTLY! :smile43:

[sonny]

So you agree with TVFan I take it? :smile31: :smile31: :smile31: Just teasing, I'm in that kinda mood.

Just needed to add I actually thought Scotty was really great in this episode. He had so many comical lines he made me giggle. Loved the 'threads' bit and the bit where he smiled at that old woman when he wanted to take the journal. Such a cute smile! ;D

[Disasterfreak]

Yeah, he was pretty "taking". Probably Scotty at his best. Playful and a little flirty... but hands off Lilly & co. ;D

I can't agree enough, TVFan.

[Athame]

Hehe, Lilly was drunk just days after a drunk guy fainted in the middle of our Softball game at school, at 10 in the morning. The police were there an all. Put a little bit of excitement into an otherwise routined days.

[jazzyb]

To answer Boxman's query: abuse vs. neglect. Neglect certainly, and emotional abuse if only in a passive way. As someone mentioned earlier, Ellen Rush honestly believes she did the best job she could, under the circumstances, raising her two daughters. But they both grew up needing the love, validation, support, pride, encouragement, etc., etc. that parents are supposed to provide and unfortunately Ellen was not/is not able to supply those things. You can't blame Lilly for wanting a better relationship with her mother (and her sister too, for that matter) despite all the hurt and disappointment from the past. Do you get the feeling that every character in this show just needs a giant dose of psychotherapy?!

[theotherkenny]

Am I the only one that found the shushing librarian scene amusing?



Hehe anyway....

I liked the case in general. Being a writer myself, I enjoyed Violet and found almost everything believable....

Of course, I said almost, the death/murder scene...

The death didn't seem believable to me....

Now regarding Lily, I too was shocked that she called Kite....Ray would had been more amusing, and I did read what WAS suppose to be said with Ray, and I found it a lot more entertaining and believable than the conversation with Kite.

Overall, it was good, but eh I expected it to be better....

[KathrynFan]

screencaps up at KMO Now

coldcase-screencaps-season3.fotopic.net/c920830.html

[sonny]

Thaaaaaannnks KathrynFan

[eurache]

I forgot I was going to do some research on the song I did recognize. It was a 1921 original song and it was sung by Fanny Price and Barbara S.

here's the site :

www.barrypopik.com/article/454/second-hand-rose-from-second-avenue-1921

and we were talking about similarities of "The Great Gatsby" book/movie:

www.homework-online.com/tgg/index.asp

[TVFan]

Thanks KF!

I think it's a testament to the quality of this show that the writers continue to give us plenty of interesting relationships to discuss. You all know that I'm all for Lilly entering into a romantic relationship, but I find that even when they're exploring her other relationships, I'm glued to the screen (like this episode's dynamic between her and her wayward mother). They've done an excellent job of creating a believable, complex character with very little character-oriented scenes. And I completely agree with jazzyb about the psychotherapy. It seems to be so true of everyone in the real world too!

[boxman]

tvfan said:

What struck me as extremely interesting in this scene was the way she so desperately wanted to change. I don't think Lilly fully understands what happened between her and Kite. It wasn't just about her picking Mark (i.e. her job) over him that night on the street. It was about the fact that she was much more emotionally available with Mark (a stranger) than Kite, who was supposedly her boyfriend at the time. Even though she presumably slept with Kite, she was much more intimate with Mark. She shared details of her life that she wasn't sharing with Kite. It goes back to the idea that Lilly opens up with suspects and victims families (strangers), but not those closest to her like her family, co-workers and boyfriends because there's no risk in opening up to strangers. If she opens up to someone close, they might judge her or reject her and then she'd end up hurt. I think it's easier for her to get rejected by someone like Kite over her job than another reason. In other words, it's not just that she's a workaholic, it's the reasons behind it. She hides behind her job because it's safe, and she's suddenly starting to realize that this is preventing her from being happy. The message she left for Kite was really meant for herself.

Well said, TVFan! I totally agree with your observations here!

jazzyb said:

To answer Boxman's query: abuse vs. neglect. Neglect certainly, and emotional abuse if only in a passive way. As someone mentioned earlier, Ellen Rush honestly believes she did the best job she could, under the circumstances, raising her two daughters. But they both grew up needing the love, validation, support, pride, encouragement, etc., etc. that parents are supposed to provide and unfortunately Ellen was not/is not able to supply those things. You can't blame Lilly for wanting a better relationship with her mother (and her sister too, for that matter) despite all the hurt and disappointment from the past. Do you get the feeling that every character in this show just needs a giant dose of psychotherapy?!

I think JazzyB's opinion here is the one that is the closest to how I view Ellen Rush. Neglect is definitely a form of mental/emotional abuse, though I think there is enough distinction between the two to classify them separately.

Abuse comes in many forms: Physical, sexual, mental, and emotional abuse. With each, I think there is definitely an intention by the perpetrator to overcome the victim. On the other hand, neglect is the lack of attentive care, and its the absence of care that leads the victim to suffer mental and emotional wounds; and in the case of Lilly, the lack of attention creates physical wounds too.

I didn't see any intention by Lilly's mom to ever intentionally overpower Lilly. The touch of her hand, the respectful request for Lilly to be the maid of honor, and other little moments I think showed that Ellen views Lilly as an equal, rather than subordinate. This isn't characteristic of someone who is abusive, and is one of the reasons that leads me to conclude that Ellen's problem was of neglect.

Another aspect that differentiates the two is that I think a victim of neglect is able to forgive the other party more easily than a victim of abuse is able to. Lilly did have it in her to attend the wedding, so I think that indicates Lilly views her wounds more as neglect, rather than abuse.

It was interesting to see "Churchgoing People" last night too. Lilly was at first hard on Detective Sherman for screwing up the original 1990 investigation. When he admitted to her that he was a drunk in those years and accepted the fact that he botched that and other investigations, Lilly backed off on him. Lilly seems to have an understanding and empathy to alcoholics, which we later understand is from her life with her mom and sister. I think her reaction to Det. Sherman shows that she is likely to forgive her mom the more Ellen accepts responsibility for the way Lilly was brought up.

So to answer my own question: Neglectful? Yes. Abusive? No, not really. And I hope the two can make amends too; it will make both of them better individuals.

There's another twist to this episode and the other related episode written by Liz Garcia, "Best Friends". In each, there were many orphans. Meredith Baxter is in her late fifties, so isn't it safe to assume that Lilly's grandmother might be a woman in her late seventies or early eighties? If so, where is she? Was Ellen Rush an orphan herself? That would go far in explaining why she didn't know how much more attention she needed to give to Lilly and Christina, as well as her own problems with men and relationships....

And didn't Lilly and Kite's relationship fail because Lilly neglected Kite? If so, doesn't my view beckon the posibility that Kite may forgive Lilly for being the way she is (Live-to-Work, rather than Work-to-Live), the more Lilly acknowledges her role in the failed relationship???

[V]

boxman said:

I think JazzyB's opinion here is the one that is the closest to how I view Ellen Rush. Neglect is definitely a form of mental/emotional abuse, though I think there is enough distinction between the two to classify them separately.

Abuse comes in many forms: Physical, sexual, mental, and emotional abuse. With each, I think there is definitely an intention by the perpetrator to overcome the victim. On the other hand, neglect is the lack of attentive care, and its the absence of care that leads the victim to suffer mental and emotional wounds; and in the case of Lilly, the lack of attention creates physical wounds too.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, boxman. And not to be a stickler, but neglect is a form of abuse and you cannot clearly distinguish the two. Now, one could argue that Ellen's neglect was not one specific act and occured over a long period of time, and did not necessarily cause any serious mental or physical injury. However, Ellen allowing her young child to make a drug/alcohol run by herself caused her child serious physical injury and subsequent emotional injury (i.e., a broken jaw and mental trauma). Was that intentional abuse? Not really, since Ellen did have altered mental status by arguably being intoxicated or high on drugs. Was it abuse? Absolutely. And add the neglect over the years, I would definitely argue that Lilly was an abused child.

To prove my point, here's an excerpt from PA law on this issue:

§ 29.91. Definitions relating to child abuse reporting requirements.

The following words and terms, when used in this section and § § 29.92—29.97, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:

Child abuse—A term meaning any of the following:

(i) A recent act or failure to act by a perpetrator which causes nonaccidental serious physical injury to a child under 18 years of age.

(ii) An act or failure to act by a perpetrator which causes nonaccidental serious mental injury to or sexual abuse or sexual exploitation of a child under 18 years of age.

[soccerulz]

Very interesting V - thanks! ;D

[sonny]

v said:

boxman said:

I think JazzyB's opinion here is the one that is the closest to how I view Ellen Rush. Neglect is definitely a form of mental/emotional abuse, though I think there is enough distinction between the two to classify them separately.

Abuse comes in many forms: Physical, sexual, mental, and emotional abuse. With each, I think there is definitely an intention by the perpetrator to overcome the victim. On the other hand, neglect is the lack of attentive care, and its the absence of care that leads the victim to suffer mental and emotional wounds; and in the case of Lilly, the lack of attention creates physical wounds too.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, boxman. And not to be a stickler, but neglect is a form of abuse and you cannot clearly distinguish the two. Now, one could argue that Ellen's neglect was not one specific act and occured over a long period of time, and did not necessarily cause any serious mental or physical injury. However, Ellen allowing her young child to make a drug/alcohol run by herself caused her child serious physical injury and subsequent emotional injury (i.e., a broken jaw and mental trauma). Was that intentional abuse? Not really, since Ellen did have altered mental status by arguably being intoxicated or high on drugs. Was it abuse? Absolutely. And add the neglect over the years, I would definitely argue that Lilly was an abused child.

To prove my point, here's an excerpt from PA law on this issue:

§ 29.91. Definitions relating to child abuse reporting requirements.

The following words and terms, when used in this section and § § 29.92—29.97, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:

Child abuse—A term meaning any of the following:

(i) A recent act or failure to act by a perpetrator which causes nonaccidental serious physical injury to a child under 18 years of age.

(ii) An act or failure to act by a perpetrator which causes nonaccidental serious mental injury to or sexual abuse or sexual exploitation of a child under 18 years of age.

Excellent post V and I agree with everything you said. Here in the UK the Children Act clearly describes neglect as one aspect of abuse and states that alot of children abused don't often just fall in to one category, meaning that neglect often involves acts of physical and emotional abuse also.
As I said earlier it is very difficult to distinguish between the two because abuse it the term used to describe many aspects of personal and emotional harm.