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Post by frenchfan on Jul 15, 2006 11:35:59 GMT -5
Great analysis Michelle.  Completely all right. Even if as for me I still have questions which stay without answer on the reasons which enticed Lilly towards Kite. It seems to me so remote from what she can want to live with a man. But I have already said it I had difficulty in understanding the reactions of Lilly in front of Kite to the certain moments.  |
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Post by TVFan on Jul 17, 2006 10:16:55 GMT -5
I think this the crux of the entire relationship, michelle. Kite had his eye on Lilly because he was physically attracted to her from the get go. He was probably turned on by her position of power, so between that and her "hotness," he decided to pursue her. I think he completely overlooked all of the things that he knew he wouldn't like about her (such as her dedication to her career and emotional distance) because he was blinded by her looks. Every time we saw these two together, he was trying to take things further. He made her very uncomfortable in "Glued" when he tried to remove her hair clip (which he saw as a gateway to more  ), and as you so eloquently pointed out, he basically forced her into a more serious type of relationship (which curiously enough, was - as far as we know - before the two ever slept together). Was it all just a ploy to get Lilly to a place where she was more comfortable and willing to "let her hair down" in front of him? I don't know. I do think that he ran at the first sight of her working extra hours because the physical attraction only took him so far in forgiving certain things about her that he had previously overlooked. I enjoyed reading your more prominent point as well Michelle. Lilly was definitely flirty in that exchange with Mark. Like you said, she was very well aware of his confused attraction to her, and I think you're right in thinking that she enjoyed it. Like you said, it was OK to sort of play around with it because it was safe. She was seeing Kite and Mark was, in reality, trying to bring back his dead ex-girlfriend, so his attraction to Lilly was completely misguided. Lilly definitely had a guilty look on her face when Kite finally emerged after waiting hours for her. As far as I'm concerned, they were both wrong, but Kite was more wrong because I still feel that he led Lilly on by making her think that he wanted a more meaningful relationship, but only seeking a physical one. When Lilly pulled her little stunt, he decided that she and the relationship weren't worth it. |
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Jul 17, 2006 11:30:44 GMT -5
Really great analysis michelle and TVFan. Makes me quite anxious to see this ep ... have to wait until it rolls around on TNT.  |
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Sept 20, 2006 13:54:45 GMT -5
Just wanted to follow-up my own post (LOL!) from July to say I finally got to see this ep, and I still agree with both michelle and TVFan on the overall end to the Lilly / Kite relationship (as well as what I've written previously in a couple of the other Kite-esque episode threads from Season 1). I actually thought this ep was pretty strong - I was trying to watch it with the mindset that it was the finale to Season 1. One thing I can say ... if Joseph, Ray or whomever doesn't work out for Lilly in Season 4, bring back this Mark guy. LOL! (Kidding, but I actually did like him quite a bit ... some really touching scenes between he and Lilly). One thing that stuck out to me ... Lilly, IMHO, appeared to be taking to heart the fact that Mark truly fell in love / was in love with Eve, and that he carried the torch with him all these years later. There were some moments where Lilly seemed to silently think about / question / ponder her own situation (with Kite) and perhaps compare it to what Mark had with Eve. The way I saw this episode, and those moments, I believe Lilly knew she did NOT have that kind of connection with Kite, but perhaps wished she did. Kite was in it for him. Lilly was in it for them. Not the same thing. He only, IMHO, ever wanted the hot homicide detective who was the ultimate challenge to "get." The proof, for me, truly came at the end of this episode, where he basically says he doesn't want to deal with the fact that Lilly is as committed to her job as she is ... almost as if to say, "Hey, we can be together if we're on my terms. But if I have to deal with you being you, well ... never mind." I did not dig that at all, and it further supports the theory that Kite was only in it for himself all along. Additionally, I don't see Lilly's job as her other "lover," or that she chose her job over the relationship. I see the job - and her passion, commitment, dedication, determination to the victims - as an essential part of who she is ("watching other people's lives" / "a front row seat"). Anyone who is going to be with her has got to accept and be comfortable with her saving the world at 3 a.m. If they cannot handle that, or think she's going to change, they're mistaken. Lilly is Lilly, and she should be loved for who she is, not for who someone thinks she should be. I actually found the "break-up" scene to be a high point for Lilly. She was the one trying to reach out to make amends. She seemed, in that moment, to try to salvage the investment she had made with Kite (even though she knew she messed up - and fully admitted to it, which for me was a big step for her). Yet, Kite just pushed her aside because she was always going to want to save the world at 3 a.m. - even if HE was with her. My question to Kite: So, you're just now figuing out that Lilly is like this ...? That this is her MO after all these months of pursuing / being with her? LOL! I don't think so. He knew. But, he never wanted Lilly as she was ... he wanted her as HE wanted her. That is as one-sided as it gets, IMHO. And, although I enjoyed watching what Kite brought out of Lilly, he wasn't the guy for her. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Sept 20, 2006 13:59:01 GMT -5
Something I had noticed when Mark askes Lilly if she has a soulmate. It's very clear there was something going on in her mind. There's another thing Lilly mentions that at 15 it's very flattering to get attention by older men, was she referring to herself there?
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michelle
Loyal to Look Again
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Post by michelle on Sept 20, 2006 14:00:41 GMT -5
Well said LillyKat. Reading over your comments re-ignited my irritation that Lilly felt the need to apologize in Beautiful Little Fool, to say that the breakup was her fault. Cause it wasn't. That's Lilly though. In addition to being leery of relationships and perhaps overly dedicated to her job, she also takes blame when things go wrong. Even if the blame is not hers.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Sept 20, 2006 14:03:47 GMT -5
Well said LillyKat. Reading over your comments re-ignited my irritation that Lilly felt the need to apologize in Beautiful Little Fool, to say that the breakup was her fault. Cause it wasn't. That's Lilly though. In addition to being leery of relationships and perhaps overly dedicated to her job, she also takes blame when things go wrong. Even if the blame is not hers. Maybe the reason why Lilly takes all the blame is b/c she might have suffered a lot of mental abuse growing up as a child and was made to believe that everything was her fault when it wasn't. |
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Post by TVFan on Sept 20, 2006 15:48:29 GMT -5
This is dead on, LillyKat. Your last sentence sums up my entire love/hate relationship with Kite. |
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coldcasegirl
Lilly Rush
Sleuthing for Clues [/color]
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Post by coldcasegirl on Sept 20, 2006 20:45:12 GMT -5
WOW I just saw this ep. for the first time on TNT and I have to say I LOVED it! The whole case was just very well planned-out and explained. It was also very sad, though, that guy was TOTALLY CREEPY and very disgusting, and his son was NO better!  Lilly and Kite was totally messed up! I loved it when they kissed in her house, but then Mark had to show up and ruin their relationship (one reason), but Kite had NO right to hurt Lilly, it was so hard to look at the hurt expression she had on her face when he was confronting her!  Glad she finally found someone and I hope in season 4 we will have a MUCH happier Lilly! 
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Sept 20, 2006 20:50:09 GMT -5
Mark didn't ruin their relationship, Kite did. What was Lilly supposed to tell Mark" Sorry it's too late I can't talk to you right now"? The man was in crisis and Lilly felt sorry for him loosing Eve like that. As for the excuse that she wanted to save someone at 3am, C'mon Kite was just using that as an excuse to blame her as he breaks up with her.
He didn't even try to understand or give her another chance it's like he just shut the door forever and walked out of her life. have a feeling even if Mark didn't knock on her door, he would have still broken up with her.
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michelle
Loyal to Look Again
Lilly's GT Monkey [/color]
Posts: 1,047
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Post by michelle on Sept 21, 2006 8:23:47 GMT -5
I was just about to say the exact thing about Mark, LII. :-)
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Sept 21, 2006 22:32:33 GMT -5
Well said LillyKat. Reading over your comments re-ignited my irritation that Lilly felt the need to apologize in Beautiful Little Fool, to say that the breakup was her fault. Cause it wasn't. That's Lilly though. In addition to being leery of relationships and perhaps overly dedicated to her job, she also takes blame when things go wrong. Even if the blame is not hers. Maybe the reason why Lilly takes all the blame is b/c she might have suffered a lot of mental abuse growing up as a child and was made to believe that everything was her fault when it wasn't. I took Lilly's apologetic tone in "Beautiful Little Fool" as more of an "olive branch ice-breaker" rather than a "full-blown kowtow". They still haven't talked yet, so a lot can still happen. If Kite responds to Lilly's message by responding,"Oh yeah. Lil is finally crawling back to me", then Lilly can easily say, "Screw you! You're still the big-headed ADA you always was!!" and just get up and walk away. On the other hand, Kite may respond, "No, no, no... Don't apologize, Lil... It was all me. I rushed things back then and should've given you the space you needed and listened more." Then again, it was a good decision on Lilly's part to reopen communications with Kite with an apologetic tone...to let him think about the things he did wrong and return apologies himself. Either way, I hardly see this as something weak that Lilly did. The decision that Kite makes in how to respond will reveal a lot of what's been on his mind and how he's been seeing the situation over the past few years. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Sept 21, 2006 23:02:03 GMT -5
Okay, everyone. Here's a hypothetical question in two parts:
In the episode, we can reasonably assume that Kite and Lilly spent the evening together on a date before they're in Lilly's apartment. There's a knock on the door, and surprise, it's Mark. He tells Lilly he looked up her address. He just had an argument with his wife about Eve and needed someone to talk to.
Part 1:
What if the situation was slightly different and Kite decided to go right home instead of spending the night with Lilly? (Perhaps he needed to get up early the next morning.) In this scenario, Lilly is alone when Mark comes to the door. Put yourself in Lilly's shoes: Would you (as Lilly) talk to Mark? What would you tell him??
Part 2:
Now put yourself in Stillman's shoes, the next day. How do you respond to Lilly with the decision you made in Part 1?? Remember that Mark survived the incident because he had light wounds and was the first suspect to be re-investigated. Also, keep in mind how Stillman responds to Lilly in "Joseph".
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Feb 7, 2008 16:34:01 GMT -5
Okay, so I'm reviving this thread again ... I think for the third time since I've been here (LOL!). This ep reaired again this week on TNT, and with the renewed debate of old Lilly vs. new Lilly, this ep has now become a pivotal one for me for one reason: balance. IMHO, this ep gave us a tangible portrayal of Lilly trying to figure out how to maintain balance in her life - something that is sorely missing nowadays. Though she was not perfect at it (as many of us aren't), and probably still isn't an expert (how many of us are), the fact balance WAS a possibility has made this ep ever more appealing to me - especially since I have had a lot more time to reflect on the series on the whole since first encountering this episode about a year and a half ago. I now count this ep as one of my favorites of the series. The Lilly/Mark scene on the steps is my Top 5 given it showed Lilly the woman as opposed to Lilly the cop. It illustrated the never-ending struggle in trying to find that balance in life when a job is so consuming (and of which, for Lilly, she devotes herself so wholeheartedly). The scene was delicate, but not too delicate. The way she spoke about the job, how she sees herself, how she sees her life, how she's become what she's become ... well, it resonates with me even more so than the first time I saw it. And the ep, on the whole, encapsulates the best of old Lilly, IMHO. Really and truly. There was just such a balance between her as detective and her as a woman that we just seem to not have today. What I said before: I actually thought this ep was pretty strong - I was trying to watch it with the mindset that it was the finale to Season 1. One thing I can say ... if Joseph, Ray or whomever doesn't work out for Lilly in Season 4, bring back this Mark guy. LOL! (Kidding, but I actually did like him quite a bit ... some really touching scenes between he and Lilly). What I say now: Still agree. And actually, looking back on the Mark/Lilly dynamic - as misplaced as it might have been - it was very poignant, and it revealed a true up close and personal glance at what I think is the essence of Lilly Rush. Sadly, though, I can't see today's Lilly doing anything like this ... which is why it is so strange to watch these older episode ... I feel I'm almost watching two different characters. What I said before: What I say now: Still agree, but I believe I have softened my view of Kite somewhat. On the whole, he was the best thing to happen to her, and more importantly, did not put her in WORSE shape simply by being with her. There was no depressed-childhood-think-I'm-still-12-years-old-let's-run-away baggage to drag around (Ray), or some Johnny-On-The-Spot moment of neediness (Joseph, though I did like him). And although I do still think Kite was in it a little too much for himself, he genuinely brought out only good things in her, and more importantly, treated her well. These were two professionals trying to make a relationship work but ultimately didn't (or couldn't) see eye to eye. I now have to say I would not mind seeing Lilly/Kite Round 2, but again, not holding my breath given the way the show is going. What I said before: What I say now: DEFINITELY AGREE and wonder where this Lilly has gone. It is my main sticking point with the show today, and the downward spiral of the Lilly Rush character development. Today's Lilly is lost, stuck in a rut, not getting on with her life, way too depressed, lacking any sort of passion and/or drive that seemed overly abundant early on. It's almost like she reacts in fear to half the things going on. Or in desperation. Or in denial. Where is "saving the world at 3 a.m." Lilly? Where is her take-charge-ness? Her boldness? Her chutzpah? And where, for crying out loud, is her heart? Did it turn to stone or something? Does she have feelings other than sadness and remorse? Perhaps this show needs to be renamed Cold Case Terminator: The Lilly Rush Chronicles 'cause I think I'm getting more emotion out of the machines over on that show. I get Lilly's matured, been through a lot, but at the expense of her true essence and/or never be able to recover? What I said before: What I say now: Agree that Kite should have, arguably, been a little more clued in to the essence of Lilly, and thus, not trying to make her into something she wasn't. Even WITH the awkward Mark thing, Kite was a little to quick to drop Lil', IMHO, especially given he's spent a heck of a lotta time pursuing her. So, she messes up once (or twice) and he dumps her? Doesn't quite add up for me, which is why he got on my nerves and/or I started to view him as "in it for himself." That said ... he did make her seem so human. She laughed. She smiled. She let him in. Uncharted territory perhaps for Lil', who only seems to have known a) cheater ex fiance Patrick; b) and loser motorcycle moron Ray. Kite was a good guy. A normal guy. He treated Lil' pretty darn well (even if he did seem to be too cocky at times, too pushy to get with her). But more than anything, and what seemed to only exist back in the ol' days is a sense of Lilly's normalness, and specifically, the woman in her. The side that laughs, smiles, jokes, is sharp, is funny, can balance her passion for her job with a passion for life - even if she stumbles now and again, she at least made the effort ... and was better for it, IMHO. |
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Post by Naj on Feb 7, 2008 18:05:36 GMT -5
Hey Lillykat! I think Kite just knew what he wanted. When he and Lilly first met, he commented about his work day. I think he left work at 7 pm which is kinda late in my book but for his position he had drawn the line for himself. So I think in looking for a person to share his life he must of thought Lilly would not be so tied to her job if she met the right person. Don't know if this is true of Lilly but it's just what I'm perceiving of Kite. This ep was the second time of season one where Lilly got close to a guy during the course of a case. James was the other in "Sherry Darlin'". And, unfortunately, Mark happens to show up on her doorstep because he's missing his dead gal who Lilly resembles for him. It's not that Lilly has this happening all the time - it's just seems to be ONE time this happens and Kite happens to be around Lilly. I'd say that was just bad luck for Kite. And, as we know, Kite's character was leaving the show so maybe this is why the scene between Mark and Lilly takes place at Lilly's to show motivation for the break up. Maybe the scene would have initially happened at headquarters.  I did find it kinda odd. I thought that Lilly fleshed out really quickly that Mark was drawn to her for that reason of her resemblence. She was just being nice to the guy. Now James Hogan, I still do wonder what she wrote to him..... ;D |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Feb 7, 2008 18:08:16 GMT -5
Perhaps Lilly might changed and understand that she was the one who pushed Kite away. Maybe she'll have another chance with him, he did love her. I think just maybe she'll realize that not everyone is out to hurt her.
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Post by TVFan on Feb 8, 2008 21:00:48 GMT -5
Excellent analysis, LillyKat. It's nice to revisit this story line with the benefit of seeing the ensuing 3 1/2 seasons. The side of Lilly that this relationship brought out is, in my opinion, the biggest loss of the series. I miss that side of her and continue to mourn it even further when I sit down and watch episodes such as this (which, fortunately, I didn't get to see this past week or I would have written another diatribe over in the Lilly vs. Lilly thread). Remember that endearing sorta innocence and vulnerability that he brought out in her (she wasn't ready to literally "let her hair down" in front of him in "Glued")? That was brilliant! Or, the coy smiles and awkward exchanges that Kite seemed to ellicit out of our usually put together cool, calm detective? It was such a departure, and as LillyKat pointed out, it's what made her human. Plus, wasn't it just nice to see her happy once in awhile? For cryin' out loud, the man got her to dance! And don't even get me started on that beyond brilliant (and now infamous) trash can scene. Oh, how I wish they'd bring back Kite! Stat!! |
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Post by Naj on Feb 11, 2008 12:44:52 GMT -5
Maybe Kite will come back! I saw him on a ep last week while channel surfing. It was on Ghost Whisperer!!! So maybe he has no other work and he can be written back into CC. ;D Maybe this ep was a pivotable point to the Lilly they had planned to continue and with the exit of Kite they floundered in what to do with her? And I miss "Lilly Rush". Bring back Kite!!!!  |
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Feb 11, 2008 14:23:23 GMT -5
TVFan: "Glued" - hair down / "Hubris" - trash can ... such CLASSIC moments. Those scenes spoke such volumes without being overdone and gave us some serious insight to Lil's inner-workings (especially her heart ... fragile, but at least it was alive!). Again, I ask (sort of rhetorically) why is it we never get to see her like that anymore? What the heck happened to Lilly Rush, the woman? Remember Kathryn's comments at the beginning of season three, during the CBS podcast: "She's just a woman when it comes down to it." What the heck happened to trying to have work and a life? Seeing her stumble (literally in "Hubris") WITHOUT some sort of depressed agonizing baggage clouding her judgment ... are we ever going to see her get out and live a little again? I don't know. Naj: I like your wishful thinking. "Floundered" is a GREAT way to describe the stagnant emotional development of Lilly since Kite's exit.
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Post by eurache on Jun 22, 2008 7:16:23 GMT -5
TNT REPEAT - JUNE 25, 2008 (11PM ET)
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), and as you so eloquently pointed out, he basically forced her into a more serious type of relationship (which curiously enough, was - as far as we know - before the two ever slept together). Was it all just a ploy to get Lilly to a place where she was more comfortable and willing to "let her hair down" in front of him? I don't know. I do think that he ran at the first sight of her working extra hours because the physical attraction only took him so far in forgiving certain things about her that he had previously overlooked.
