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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 21, 2006 9:02:19 GMT -5
Good catch maybe he has committted that
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Post by TVFan on Mar 21, 2006 10:49:40 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% here, boxman. Lilly has been wronged by too many people in her life to just brush it off and move on. I don't think that she'll weigh this lie from Scotty as heavily as she does his lie last season or any of the lies that other people close to her have sold her, but I think she will allow it to affect the way she sees Scotty. It's like sonny said a few pages back, Scotty's actions speak volumes about his (in)ability to exercise some self control and then come clean when he fails. It's a pattern, and there's no way Lilly hasn't picked up it. As you said boxman, she's not the type to just forget it.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 21, 2006 10:58:12 GMT -5
But I think Lilly may think that about scotty she's no going to open her mouth again .Enough had been said last season .I think this "lie" that scotty told was a direct lying to her face b/c this incident had nothing to do with her personally . Lilly might have caught him again but the situation was quite different. Lilly is going to still remember his dirty little lie last year ,she does view him quite differently but he still is her partner and know he would do anything to protect her. I think that's what made scotty go outside and rethink about himself and how he's got to quit lying all the time. He does realize that he hurt lilly last year by stepping out with her sister and lying about it , then this time not telling the truth about seeing Ana the night she died. Scotty's going to change but I have a feeling this will happen slow, Lilly has a big impact on scotty and he knows this . I think there is a chance that lilly might forget about it due to the fact that she still has george on her mind .
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on Mar 22, 2006 2:56:25 GMT -5
Hi BOXMAN! Lets take this one step farther. Lets say you were a parent in a concentration camp during WWII. Would you tell your child that everything was not going to be all right? Or better yet, my family was at the Cox Arena in S.D. and my son was really worried about the bomb threat. I told him that everything was ok and he had nothing to worry about even though I had some doubts. As for putting myself in my friends place-my husband sometimes tells me something and then a few weeks later tells me the truth and why he said what he said. I think if someone knows you lied to avoid hurting their feelings and there is a true relationship, people understand. Also, I guess it was not ok for the Carter administration to lie to avoid having a magazine publilsh an article about the attempt to rescue the hostages from Iran. I am one of those people that feels that sometimes for society's good while lies can be told! Hi, ecooper!!  Well, I still don't see the purpose of lying in these situations... If I understand you correctly, I think the government has a responsibility to be open and honest with us citizens--that's the foundation for any working democracy. Can you imagine what it would be like if the Mayor of New Orleans, the Governor of Louisiana, the President, and the Director of FEMA were all allowed to lie and cover-up their actions during Katrina? I don't see how government officials lying leads to any good for society. A marriage has financial, biological, and contractual obligations associated with it that mere friendships don't. I don't see why anyone should use that as a means to allow lies--even casual "white lies--to enter. To me, that's not much more better than allowing minor verbal and mental abuse to happen, with the thought that these obligations will 'smooth things over'. Even though I kinda see your point here, I personally would think having a 'true relationship' means you don't have to pretty-up statements to avoid hurt feelings. (Then again, this POV is coming from a single, fourty-year-old guy.) In this part of the country, its generally agreed that saying what you mean the first time is important; people don't expect a second, different answer coming from you a few days later. Effective communication is important. A person has to know themself, their values, and their opinions really well in order to function well among others here. Otherwise, one simply gets run over by others who can get their point across more quickly and effectively. The bomb-scare situation is unique because the overriding concern in that scenario at the moment would be my family's safety. It's where short-term concerns heavily outweigh long-term consequences. I'd still tell them that we're in danger, though, and not do as you have, which is to tell them everything is okay. Here in Philly, its good to teach a young kid to be fearful of dangerous situations because there are so many such situations to deal with. At the same time, such a situation would be a good moment for me to display courage and a calm-and-collected demeanor. "This," I'd explain later,"is the difference between being a kid and being an adult. Maintaining self-control in such situations." I'd like to think that years later, they'd fondly look back at that moment as one when they trusted me, felt safe in my protection, and felt that I gave them some kind of strength to aspire to as they grew into adults. Finally, in a concentration camp, I'd prepare my kid for death. I definitely have plans to raise my kids believing in some religion (most likely Christianity when they're young, then Buddhism as they're able to think philosophically). There are many parables in both religions to help them understand that death is not something to fear. Even without religion, I think other life experiences (such as the loss of a pet, death of a relative, or even a broken toy) should help to remove the fear of dying. "Acceptance", as it is called in the Five Stages.... I'm certainly not afraid of dying myself. Although I don't have kids, I still don't think this attitude is hard to teach to a youngster. One of my earliest memories is of my grandfather dying and his funeral. Death hasn't scared me in my life, and I honestly think that given time, I could teach that to my kids in that scenario. Sooo... after all this, we still disagree, ecooper!! Or did you already expect that?? *sigh* |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on Mar 22, 2006 3:00:01 GMT -5
Boxman, I'm impressed at your analysis and all the possible hidden messages you found. I don't know about Lilly and Scotty thing, though. They're still at a weird point in their work/friend relationship, for me it doesn't make much sense for the writers to hint at something so serious as a romance at this point. :smile6: * boxman notices that there are two "T"s in "Tati" * :smile6: hmmm.... |
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Post by eurache on Mar 22, 2006 8:24:38 GMT -5
Boxman, I'm impressed at your analysis and all the possible hidden messages you found. I don't know about Lilly and Scotty thing, though. They're still at a weird point in their work/friend relationship, for me it doesn't make much sense for the writers to hint at something so serious as a romance at this point.  * boxman notices that there are two "T"s in "Tati" * hmmm.... :smile21: OMGs.. boxman get some sleep please!! :smile21: |
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Post by Tati on Mar 22, 2006 9:18:30 GMT -5
Boxman, I'm impressed at your analysis and all the possible hidden messages you found. I don't know about Lilly and Scotty thing, though. They're still at a weird point in their work/friend relationship, for me it doesn't make much sense for the writers to hint at something so serious as a romance at this point. * boxman notices that there are two "T"s in "Tati" * hmmm.... ROFL... :smile21: |
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Post by ecooper516 on Mar 22, 2006 18:15:38 GMT -5
HI BOXMAN
You are right. I don't think we will ever convince each other-you have your opinion, and I will have mine.
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Mar 22, 2006 21:38:57 GMT -5
HI BOXMAN You are right. I don't think we will ever convince each other-you have your opinion, and I will have mine. ...which I respect, too, btw! Thanks for an interesting discussion, ecooper. You left me with a lot to think about for when I get married and have small kids. I'll keep all of this in mind! :smile43: |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 22, 2006 21:41:45 GMT -5
I totally agree with you boxman !! I will keep this in mind when I too get married and have kids
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Mar 23, 2006 1:17:49 GMT -5
Hm, and your hint about the use of the song Teardrop and the showing of the statue of Mary at the end... are you suggesting something dramatic might happen to Scotty in the future, something causing tears? Or more sins by Scotty? I honestly don't see a connection. What I see is, that the song at the beginning is helping to display Scotty had feelings for Ana and Ana felt something perhaps for Scotty, it was intention to let us at least think it could have been a love affair. And at the end we see Scotty, after his mistakes had surfaced, how he seeks forgiveness, still feeling guilty and somewhat responsible for what happened to Ana. Showing the cookies are still there, makes it only a little more tragic - not only that Scotty might still question, if he could have done something, Ana might have been able to save her life herself by telling where she hid the drugs (though I don't think it would have saved her life). They got the murderer, but the people involved, especially Scotty, might not find real peace with that. And yeah, the latter might be picked up. Don't need a hidden message to think, that this episode offers information about Scotty that might be interesting to work with again in episodes to come. I agree, you don't need a 'hidden message' to see that Scotty's life is about to change in the episodes to come. In my view, the idea of adding 'tears' in the lyrical and symbolic sense helps to reinforce that conclusion at an abstract, non-literal level. The metaphor of 'tears' underscores the idea that 'others' are recognizing his sins, feel sorrow for it, and are hoping for a miracle that he will change. (This was shown in the scene following Scotty's meeting with Stillman and Lilly: Scotty walked out of the office; Jeffries gave a nod to Vera; and Vera knew well enough to follow Scotty outside and let him talk about what he had done. Vera gave Scotty the kind of forgiving ear and acceptance that (hopefully) will help Scotty turn his life around.) In contrast, throughout the episode they called Scotty's old precinct "West", when clearly in "Frank's Best" and in the outdoor shot of the yellow-brick 26th Precinct offices, it should have been elsewhere in North Philly. There was a disconnect of facts between the past episodes, visuals representations, and the spoken, literal script. So again, I find the idea that Scotty's life is about to turn around is reinforced both by the script (as you have detailed) and by the metaphors of 'tears'. And I hope this is true, don't you? It's about time for Scotty's life to take a new direction, don't you agree? |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 23, 2006 8:55:45 GMT -5
I agree it is about time that Scotty's life takes a turn , he's at the age for it and after everything it would only be right. Maybe this will lead to a Lilly/Scotty Friendship or Relationship.
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Post by eurache on Mar 23, 2006 16:14:21 GMT -5
Altho I like to read various opinions of everyone with their interesting theories and such; I feel your opinions, LongIslandItalian, you seem to always contradict yourself everytime you post and agree with someone. I've been getting numerous complaints and I'm referring this matter to the administrators. At this point, I suggest you not continue with your contradictable opinions. You have been warned.
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Mar 23, 2006 23:16:16 GMT -5
I'm really terribly sorry I didn't watch this before, because I feel there's so much to say about this episode, and you've probably all said it already. So if I repeat anything, please forgive me, I'll go back and read everything afterwards, I promise (I just wanna say what's on my mind before I forget). ;D What a quality episode. Usually the eps I like best are the Lilly episodes; Lilly was hardly more than supporting cast in this one, yet I really REALLY liked it. The story was exciting, the twists were believable... I loved the high-speed, greenish-tinted flashbacks. They created an air that's impossible to describe. Being Hispanic, I recognized almost all the songs, and lemme tell you they were all on the dot. Really created the atmosphere. Kudos to the awesome underscore too! It really stood out for me at least. The acting was great. The girl who played Ana really drove me by the nose the whole episode. Good actress! And I love the actor who played the priest. Loved him on WaT, loved him here. And need I really comment on Danny Pino's acting? And KM's? Their expressions were subtle, yet significant. I understand lots of what you guys were psyched about during the chat. Lilly's face on realizing Scotty had lied AGAIN--not only that, but apparently he made a habit of it and was frighteningly convincing--really disappointed her. It was like she'd given him another chance after Chris, like maybe it was a one-time thing (cuz he was "screwed up", as Vera so aptly put it), and now she realized it wasn't. Not sure if I believe there was any symbolism regarding Lilly and Scotty here; at least I didn't see any. Of course, neither do I wanna see it.  Lil and Scotty are best left as friends with a complex relationship. Last but not least, I wanna say Kat looked beautiful in this episode (I like her make up a whole lot better than Lilly's--what's up with making my Lilly look like a rosy-cheeked porcelain doll?), and that I absolutely loved the "Vera-big-brother" moment with Scotty. And Jeffries' nudge was hysterical. Almost a "who's gonna go comfort the kid" kinda thing. Ok, now I'm gonna go back and read everything you guys wrote, and once again, sorry for being such a delayed fool. ;D PS: I loved the Ana character. She was a good girl, and she really did "return to innocence". The moment she realized all hope in this life was gone for her, was one of the saddest scenes I've seen on CC. Her relationship with Scotty was also complex... I loved they didn't make her just another fling, but something much deeper, and only part romantic. |
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Mar 23, 2006 23:52:46 GMT -5
OMG, I'm gonna double post!!!  Sorry but I hafta, because after reading all the posts mine sounds just a teeny weeny bit retarded. ;D :smile25: Boxman: I totally agree with you about the "creepy" factor. It made me really uneasy to suddenly discover this "dirt" in Scotty's past, not because I think he's perfect, but because it's such a silly, irresponsible sorta screw up. We all screw up, true, and I honestly think he was trusted with too much responsibility too soon by being sent undercover. I mean, in 1998 he musta been around 21-22, not even a detective, just a plain cop, and not one with much experience either. I know he had the looks and the accent, but if I were his boss I STILL wouldn't have sent him undercover. It was too likely he'd make some rookie mistake. I'm sorry but regarding the Lilly/Scotty arc, I hafta agree with Myril. I just don't see it, and I'd be really disappointed if they were hinting toward that. All the symbols you've seen are really cool and I admire you for picking them out, but to be honest (I tell no lies! :smile79: ... anymore), we shouldn't forget Meredith Stiehm is NOT Stanley Kubrick, and that prolly each and every one of Stanley Kubrick's symbol-pregnant movies took AGES to put together... these guys hafta to put together an episode every week! It's just impossible IMO. And neither would I want them to, it'd drive me crazy to be "seeing beyond the evident" all the time. The Vera/Scotty scene was perfect IMO, I wouldn't have wanted Lilly there at all. It's true those guys don't talk to each other unless they're at their deathbed or something... but that just adds to their charm. :smile20: |
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Post by sonny on Mar 24, 2006 11:42:03 GMT -5
Yey!! I've been waiting to hear your opinion on the episode DF, and I'm stoked you liked it! ;D ;D
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Post by eurache on Mar 24, 2006 12:51:59 GMT -5
Yey!! I've been waiting to hear your opinion on the episode DF, and I'm stoked you liked it! ;D ;D OMGs.. DF really really liked it.. <faints> :smile4: |
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Mar 24, 2006 17:20:35 GMT -5
LOL.... should I be a bit more ranty???
Uhh... ok. I thought the episode was *adopts lukewarm tone* "ok". ;D
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Post by sonny on Mar 25, 2006 4:07:15 GMT -5
= LOL.... should I be a bit more ranty??? Uhh... ok. I thought the episode was *adopts lukewarm tone* "ok". ;D :smile81: :smile81: :smile81: Nah, you shouldn't be more ranty. Just didn't think you would like it as much as you did because of the heavy emphasis on Scotty. Mind you I didn't think I would like it as much because of that. ;D |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on Mar 25, 2006 20:33:13 GMT -5
LOL.... should I be a bit more ranty??? Uhh... ok. I thought the episode was *adopts lukewarm tone* "ok". I'm wondering, how long before you start your reviews with the phrase, "Worst episode ever"? Ha ha ha. ;D Just kidding! I'm not sure if you've read all of my posts, but after all I've written I've concluded that any allusion to a Scotty-Lilly relationship could possibly be all deception, which is very much in-line with the theme of this episode. I think there is also another far-fetched allusion to a woman named "T" from the year 2000, but this is also just as uncertain as a Scotty-Lilly hook-up. (See Sanctuary's music thread for the year 2000 connection.) Actually, I don't find Cold Case making this kind of "symbol-pregnant" episode very often; and even if they did, I don't think it's as hard as you make it to be. A very gifted art director working closely with the writers and directors can easily throw in the right visuals to complement the story. We've already seen that this is true with Cold Case; for example, the use of the colour green in the episode "Greed", as well as the use of butterflies in "The Promise" and "Dog Day Afternoons". TVFan has pointed out to me that butterflies are used in "Fly Away" as well (I haven't seen the episode), so it does show some planning of recurring visual themes on their part. Anyway, don't you think that it tends to be low-budget, artsy-fartsy films that rely heavily on symbolism, not the well-budgeted, "big name" directed ones? (I think Cold Case expands on the tradition of Film Noir, which originated as low-budget films that tended to be "symbol-pregnant".) Besides, this was an episode where Christianity was a theme; and as the religion teaches through parables and allegories, I find it rather suitable to think that this episode was presented with many metaphors and symbolisms. (Also, I thought some scenes appeared tinted in yellow, not just green.)I don't understand why a lot of you seem to express skepticism towards the idea that Meredith Stiehm planned character arcs way in advance. As you have noted with Schafferius, an adept writer can churn out well-written pages very quickly. Stiehm is an English/Playwriting graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, the oldest and one of the most prestigious universities in the United States. I think its very realistic for me to think that she has written out years of broadly-sketched character plots in advance of writing specific individual episodes. In fact, I think many television shows these days do so, and any writer that does not these days is--in my opinion--a fool. I hate to dog anyone, but "X-Files" creator Chris Carter is a good example of such a poor planner to me. I gradually lost interest in "The X-Files" as I began to conclude that he had no idea how to close the story of the abduction of Mulder's sister, and how to treat Mulder and Scully's social relationships. His "Lone Gunman" series was also weird--how do you account for three middle-aged, virgin-like nerds that worked with this really hot-looking secret-agent contact? By contrast, with the success of prime-time series such as "The Sopranos", "Dallas", "Buffy TVS" and so forth, most writers know the interest audiences have for long story arcs in ensemble dramas. [In fact, it's long story arcs that have given canceled television shows such as Winnie Holzman's "My So-Called Life" and Josh Whedon's "Firefly" a second chance (even though both weren't entirely successful at it  ).] It also just seems sensible to me that most writers plan in advance simply because they don't want to paint themselves into corners and embarrassingly resort to continuity errors to get out. Anyway, some say that people who make premonitions can do so because they have the ability to sense 'waves' from the future. This is analogous to an ordinary person sensing an approaching boat by looking at ripples on the water's surface, or sensing an approaching person from the sound waves they create when walking. We've all done this: We knew sometime in the future, we'd see Lilly running into a guy on a motorcycle by both the verbal and non-verbal scenes in "8 Years". What I try to do is to look for and expose smaller ripples--the ripples that you've described as "dangling in front of our eyes", something that your subconscious senses but your consciousness can't identify. So in making the logical assumption that character arcs have been written far in advance, it only makes sense to make a conscious effort to look for these small, near-subconscious ripples to predict directions that the show may be taking. You can see that they already did this on a conscious level with McRay (even George, I would assume), so why is it hard to think they aren't doing this on a subconscious level? Now with all this said, I'll say another thing I've been thinking about that I haven't mentioned until now: A lot of you are beginning to like Kat, even I have said so myself. I now say maybe we should be wary. The symbolisms I've just noticed surrounding her aren't very assuring, in my view. But then again, this was an episode about deception, right? Anyone care to guess what I've noticed about Kat? |
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).] It also just seems sensible to me that most writers plan in advance simply because they don't want to paint themselves into corners and embarrassingly resort to continuity errors to get out.
