Episode 3.15: Sanctuary

[boxman]

sonny said:

ecooper516 said:

I can't believe that you equated the lying Scotty did with his co-workers to what Lilly did to get facts regarding a case. One is personal and the other is work related, to solve a crime.

I agree Lilly lied to strangers to get the information she needed to help solve a crime. Scotty lied cos he didn't want to get himself in trouble for something that goes against his profession and a relationship where trust and truth is paramount.

Hmm, clutching at straws springs to mind boxman when it comes to your theory. I respect it but don't understand what you are getting at personally
I'm sorry but I really can't believe the writers would go down the path of hooking up Lilly and Scotty.

Sonny, I apologize...I will have to explain later. I got dropped a big task I need to finish. (At work now.) More later!

[longislanditalian2]

Don't worry Boxman I get it , good catch !!

[ecooper516]

In response to Boxman's comments. I DO NOT want Lilly and Scotty to have a relationship. However, in a work atmosphere you have to be able to trust your co-workers. It is different to tell a white lie to get information, than to out and out lie when confronted by your co-workers.

[longislanditalian2]

They could have a friendship relationship, I do agree ecooper about the lying thing .. as much as I want Lilly and scotty to get together it would never work mainly due to his actions with her sister last year..

[boxman]

ecooper516 said:

It is different to tell a white lie to get information, than to out and out lie when confronted by your co-workers.

How so? Both are lies. What is the criteria that determines a "white lie" from a lie that is unacceptable? Please explain.

[boxman]

Everyone, to clear the air about this:

boxman said:

myril said:

Oh no, this combination of words is giving me only the creep, in whatever variation I try to think of it. Actually, I don't want to really think of it. sorry

But, haha, yeah boxman, I noticed the word "rush" in these dialogues as well and couldn't help but grin. But if anything it's just a funny word-play, wouldn't read much into it.

Watching so many CC episodes in a row let your mind work, does it? Having already any dreams about CC, boxman? ;)Interesting ideas, but I don't see that connection, the building of a story arc you see here. Reading Lilly's little act in the first episode as undercover is going too far in my opinion. And the rain... hm, sure rain creates not only atmosphere but can be seen symbolic (rain=tears=sadness, for example), but doesn't have to mean the scenes are connectet in any (other) deeper sense.

You're sounding like an atheist here, Myril. Things happen for a reason. God does not play dice with the universe. At some point you have to have faith, reason only gets you so far. I suggest you take Sanctuary and look again.

Boxman, be careful how you phrase your meanings and personal comments to members. . Please be read the rules of board RULES

Edited to add: Boxman and Myril have communicated with each other. Thanks for your PM Boxman.

An atheist is:
www.webster.com/dictionary/atheist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

Well, I believe there is a God. Her name is Meredeth Steihm. Cold Case is the universe she created when she said, "Let there be Lights, Cameras, Action!"

So if anyone feels that the things that happen on this show doesn't happen with a deeper sense, that's fine with me. We can disagree, but don't feel it's an insult for me to use the word 'atheist'. I use that word simply because I feel that is an accurate, respectful description of such a person's opinion.

When I say, "Things happen for a reason," this reflects my view that Cold Case is a product of "intelligent design". I believe that Meredeth Steihm has planned very far in advance how and when things happen in this show's universe.

It is my view that each episode is not the product of evolutionary trial-and-error. It was Einstein that said,"God does not play dice with the universe," and I think if Meredeth Steihm had read my comments, she would understand that I am paying her my highest respects.

In the past few weeks, we've had long discussions about the direction of this show. Many are disappointed with the recent turns in Lilly Rush's life, whether its her relations with Ray, Scotty, or Kite. A lot of us can't figure out what is going on. This is why I say,"At some point you have to have faith, reason only gets you so far."

I'm sure a lot of us are old enough to have come upon an experience in life that was so dreadful, so heartbreaking, that we felt like giving up. But as time went on, we began to see that the experience did not make us weaker--it made us stronger. This happens when you have faith. Now I'm not referring to any religious experience, I'm just simply referring to faith in oneself, faith in friends, faith in family.

For those of you who have been reading my discussions in the "Dog Days" thread, you know that the Lilly & Ray relationship has disappointed me. This doesn't mean I have given up watching the show. Quite the contrary, I've slept so verry little in the past week-and-a-half, spending hours watching and re-watching the five episodes that have aired in this period. I do so because I have faith that Meredeth Steihm has something dramatically stunning planned in the episodes to come.

As an example of this "intelligent design", I don't think it was by any accident that "Frank's Best" was re-broadcast the week prior to "Sanctuary". In "Frank's Best", we learn that Scotty has a brother, his father is Cuban, his mother is Puerto Rican, and they are proud of him being a cop. For someone like me who has just started watching this show, it was a very intelligent thing to do--I now know Scotty well enough to have this week's episode be relevant to me.

And I really believe "Sanctuary" will be a very relevant episode for the episodes and season to come. There were just too many artsy-fartsy, symbolism thingies dangling in front of our eyes in this episode. I've been busy writing analysis for "Best Friends", but even still, this episode is overwhelming--I have barely scratched the surface, I think.

This is why I hope you folks take a look again here, and try and discover for yourselves the hidden messages I think I've found in "Sanctuary".

That moment of epiphany is sweet. I encourage everyone to look for the deeper sense in this episode so you can enjoy it too.

[myril]

Ok, boxman, but I think there is no chance in converting me into a "believer" - to stay in the analogy you started here. What I see behind the show are humans and humans can make mistakes. Or develop the show in a way I wouldn't, but they and other people might like it that way. I do respect that. It's a pity there aren't more interviews from the production team, to hear/read what they think, but oh well.

Sure, cold Case is a "product of intelligent design", no argument there, and it's a good one. I have no doubts the production team is giving it a lot of thoughts and paying attention to many details. You can just enjoy the show as Sunday eve entertainement, think and discuss about it and dig even deep into symbolism if you like. There might be even hints and hidden messages, to give clues for future stories, because there might be already some ideas, where things are going. But as well I know from others shows, by listening to commentaries by producers, writers, directors, not everything is planned for years in advance (not to mention, you can't do it IMO), but storylines or something from earlier epsiodes are picked up, because it then makes sense, is interesting because fans reacted to it, gives the story or character an interesting touch, something not thought of the moment it was first written - looking back it might look like it was planned in advance though. Don't think cold Case is different.

Well, I do respect the way you see it and some ideas and thoughts are really interesting to think about. But so far I can't see in Sanctuary a sort of key episode for episodes and season to come. Not like you do. We get interesting information and material to work with about Scotty, agreed. Will Scotty change? How will the work relation with Lilly develop? Beyond that I don't see much at the moment. But I keep my mind open.

Oh, and no offence taken, understand better what you are talking about now, boxman. In that sense and even in others I am an atheist. :smile17:

[KathrynFan]

Message from Admin

I think that we are going off topic here. Can we please stick to the episode? I don't want to have to give people warnings.

What might not offend one person, might offend another. So please stick to the ep and not religious stuff.

I don't mind if it's about the episode, but not if it's to other members. I know you guys have already resolved it, but I thought I would put my 2 cents in :-)

just to refresh people that didn't read Euraches Post before

Here are the rule please read them

coldcase2.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=rules&action=display&thread=1071033055

edited to adjust something

[ewka]

Ouu, I just loved it! I completely forgot that Scotty was going to be anyhow involved in the case in this episode and my jaw dropped dooown as I saw him welcoming Anna at the airport, haaa... ;]
Btw, she was the prettiest Scotty's "girl" so far
The case was good, very good. I also liked the music.
And about Scotty's lies -- I did not expect him trying to cover anything. He's a part of the team, doesn't he know that Lilly always gets to details?! I really thought that he wasn't talking to Anna on the phone when he said he didn't.
I want more episodes like this one!

[ecooper516]

To clarify. If you had a friend that got a horrible hair cut and they asked you how you liked it, would you tell the truth that it is horrible, or would you lie and say its ok. Its like a student who changes an answer on a test; is caught; and denies it. That is a full fledge lie. When confronted by his co-workers Scotty should have told the truth. Instead, he lied until he realized that his co-workers were calling his bluff.

[longislanditalian2]

Now I get you Ecooper , you are right about that one ..

[boxman]

ecooper516 said:

To clarify. If you had a friend that got a horrible hair cut and they asked you how you liked it, would you tell the truth that it is horrible, or would you lie and say its ok. Its like a student who changes an answer on a test; is caught; and denies it. That is a full fledge lie. When confronted by his co-workers Scotty should have told the truth. Instead, he lied until he realized that his co-workers were calling his bluff.

Hello, ecooper.
We both agree that in this episode, Scotty did do the wrong thing by lying. Our differing opinion is whether Lilly made an acceptable lie in "Look Ahead". If I understand you correctly, you feel that her actions were okay and justified. You call it a "white lie", a lie that is acceptable given a situation or circumstance. In my opinion, her lie is unacceptable and unprofessional--a lie is a lie.

So in answer your hypothetical question, I would tell my friend that his or her haircut looks horrible. I wouldn't lie. There are two reasons for this: The consequences of what my decisions do to our friendship, and the consequences of what lying does to my inner self.

When I tell my friends the truth, it builds trust in our relationship. As in the example that you give, sometimes feelings will be hurt and it can be a difficult experience. Just because it is difficult will not stop me, though. In the end, we become better, closer friends knowing that our friendship is built upon truth and honesty.

If I chose to lie to my friend about their haircut, I would need to maintain an outer appearance that is different from my inner thoughts and feelings. I cannot do this. At some point in time, my inner self (that doesn't like the haircut) will want to emerge and talk about the truth. This may lead me to gossip or talk to other people badly about my friend behind their back. I would feel terrible and deceitful towards my friend if I did this, so I don't put myself in that position in the first place. My friends know that I don't talk behind their backs nor mask my true feelings, and so that gives our friendship another solid base to stand upon: mutual respect.

I hope my answer satisfies your question. And now, its your turn. Since you feel that lying is acceptable in certain circumstances (a "white lie"), please explain to me why you would tell your friend that their haircut is not horrible--or even attractive--when inside you feel otherwise. Or if you like, we can stick with our original discussion about Lilly's interrogation technique in "Look Ahead". You can simply explain to me what distinguishes a "white lie" that is acceptable from other lies that are not.

[longislanditalian2]

Very good points , I agree with you both ...

I think after ana laid dead the piece of paper she held in her hand blew away symblizing a dream blown away.. I think this case taught scotty a lot of lessons about him , but showed him that lying about something is going to get him in trouble .. I still love the scene is stillman's office where scotty denies he didn't call her and Lilly gets him to confess by just giving him that look. I think the reason why Lilly was present in stillman's office was that she wanted to be there as a friend , she knows scotty very well and his tricks too.. Lilly might have asked ,who knows ?

[boxman]

longislanditalian2 said:

.... Lilly gets [Scotty] to confess by just giving him that look. I think the reason why Lilly was present in stillman's office was that she wanted to be there as a friend , she knows scotty very well and his tricks too.. Lilly might have asked ,who knows ?

You're on to something here... On the imdb.com board, someone also mentioned that this was unusual because it should have been Scotty's superior, Stillman, that interrogated him--not Lilly, who is his equal in rank. This scene should have been more a disciplinary/internal division procedure, but it wasn't; and Stillman should have asked Lilly to leave the room, but he didn't. Normally, this show is very realistic in this kind of thing. Why do you think this scene where Scotty confesses was scripted and filmed this way?

[TVFan]

boxman said:

You're on to something here... On the imdb.com board, someone also mentioned that this was unusual because it should have been Scotty's superior, Stillman, that interrogated him--not Lilly, who is his equal in rank. This scene should have been more a disciplinary/internal division procedure, but it wasn't; and Stillman should have asked Lilly to leave the room, but he didn't. Normally, this show is very realistic in this kind of thing. Why do you think this scene where Scotty confesses was scripted and filmed this way?

I thought the same thing when I watched this scene. I kept wondering why Lilly would be allowed in the room, but I think it had to do with her perceptions on the entire thing. Scotty has lied to Lilly's face before and it didn't end well. Now, he's faced with doing the same thing again, and he realizes that he can't do it to her again. Sure, he omitted the information, but that's not the same thing as lying to her face (twice). I think the writers, not Stillman, put Lilly in that room because of the subtle connection it had to last season. It was an awesome display of continuity. That scene is the best one from the episode IMO, so I'm willing to overlook the fact that in real life, Lilly never would have been in that room. There's a lot of stuff going on that isn't said in that scene, and I love it!

[boxman]

tvfan said:

There's a lot of stuff going on that isn't said in that scene, and I love it!

Then, keep in mind that the next scene--the flashback--is the "You like the Rush" scene...
...and that the flashbacks only happen for us, the viewers, not the people in the room....

[sonny]

tvfan said:

I think the writers, not Stillman, put Lilly in that room because of the subtle connection it had to last season. It was an awesome display of continuity. That scene is the best one from the episode IMO, so I'm willing to overlook the fact that in real life, Lilly never would have been in that room. There's a lot of stuff going on that isn't said in that scene, and I love it!

I completely agree with you here TVFan. Although on watching the ep I never thought that Lilly shouldn't have been there, but like it was said in reality she probably wouldn't have been. It was a powerful scene IMO too and said alot about the way Scotty feels about his lying to Lilly last season; that he really regrets it.

[ecooper516]

A couple of things. I thought Lilly was above Scotty in rank. Wasn't there an earlier episode where she talks to him about making it as a detective?
As for the lying issue: I am one of these people that feel that sometimes the end justifies the means. If during an interrogation or questioning of a suspect a white lie must be told to get information which leads to the public good(i.e. putting away a crimminal) I am for it. If you have NEVER lied in your life I take my hat off to you. I know, there are teachers, who have lied to encourage and motivate students telling them they have confidence that they can do well. Also, as far as the friend example, why hurt their feelings-they are stuck with the hair cut. Maybe, as the hairdo grows out say something.

[longislanditalian2]

if anyone has screencapes from this episode available to download , I would really appreciate them.

FYI- Lilly is above scotty in rank

[sonny]

I thought they were both detectives, only that Lilly has more experience than Scotty. :smile10: