Ep. 4.1 Rampage *SEASON PREMIERE*

[The Reverend Bizarre]

boxman said:

Oh cool! So you saw "Jacob's Ladder", huh?? Did you like it?? Figured out the end??

I really enjoyed the movie, and actually the only reason I got the ending is because I had walked in on the ending. Being the person that I am though, I had to watch the movie in it's entirity.

I also thought that this episode shared a similarity with the game Silent Hill 2. I won't go into it too deep, but the deal with Tina wanting to pay for her "sin" is a huge theme in SH2.


I also liked this episode, because (at least to me) that everyone had a role in the shooting. Those two guys probaly would not have started shooting people, if Tina hadn't of offered to film them. Of course to say that Tina shot those people is absurd, but she did act as the detonator for those time bombs (Cameron, and that other guy.)

[michelle]

sukkerspinn

On the other hand, the relationship is too good to be true, IMO. Joseph was too much "Ok, whatever you say, dear"-understanding.
It might be an idea of "soulmating", but I didn't buy it. Sawy.

Ah, another rock-solid realist! Preach it girl!

[longislanditalian2]

I bought the fact that they might be soulmates, Joseph seems so caring and understanding. I think Lilly knows in her heart that he is truely loves her.

[LillyKat]

michelle said:

sukkerspinn

On the other hand, the relationship is too good to be true, IMO. Joseph was too much "Ok, whatever you say, dear"-understanding.
It might be an idea of "soulmating", but I didn't buy it. Sawy.

Ah, another rock-solid realist! Preach it girl!

I’m having a hard time understanding why Joseph is being viewed as a too-good-to-be true individual when he, basically, seems to just get along with Lilly - is that a crime or something? For her to be with someone who isn’t hung up on his own issues and can just be easy-going with her? Does he need to rule her with an iron fist? Play games with her? Manipulate her? Trick her? Treat her like she’s 18 and/or pretend that she hasn't changed? Didn't Lilly herself confess she's over her OWN old behaviour in "Beautiful Little Fool," and ready for a new day? So, she's found that with a guy, and suddenly that's a bad thing because he gets along with her and is essentially allowing her to do what she said she wanted to do with her personal life?

I guess I just don’t understand the issue. I really can't quite call his interaction with her in the bedroom a “yes ma’am whatever you say” moment. She had a job to do. He knew it. Why is it in his best interests (or hers) to fight with her to keep her in bed with him when he already knows how important her work is, and thus, knows she needs to go off and take care of her business? Surely he’s been called in the middle of the night to help the Crystals, etc. of the world. Thus, I found it to be quite realistic and in character for both.

JMHO. No offense intended to anyone.



OGG: I just wanted to say I really agree with how difficult this episode was to watch due to the case subject matter. I sympathize very much with you on how close this hit to home for you.

[boxman]

xuchilbara said:

I also liked this episode, because (at least to me) that everyone had a role in the shooting. Those two guys probaly would not have started shooting people, if Tina hadn't of offered to film them. Of course to say that Tina shot those people is absurd, but she did act as the detonator for those time bombs (Cameron, and that other guy.)

And of course, Tina was triggered by the conversation at the bottom of the stairs, which was triggered by the attempted rape, triggered by the jocks that hung out at the mall looking for action. Again, this all falls into the genre of tragedy--that bad things can happen to good people not because they slipped up or anything. Just a "perfect storm" of conditions that came together to cause harm to people.

So the inclusion of Christian references such as the choice of the final song, the symbolic cross shape ot the case boxes, the mention of "ninth circle of hell" and "the apocalypse" raises the age-old philosophical question: Where is the Love of God when an event like this happens?? He could have stepped in and stopped any one of these chain of events from triggering the next event.... It's stories like this one that make me think that the writers tend to rate "world-views" in the order of: Philosophy, Religion, then Superstition.. (Though Religion tends to be a close second, and Superstion a distant third.)

BTW, one of my good friends also has the last name "Coulter", just like one of the shooters. Yeah, he owns about three or four different firearms. (A handgun, shotgun, antique musket, and I think a semi-automatic rifle...)

lillykat said:

I’m having a hard time understanding why Joseph is being viewed as a too-good-to-be true individual when he, basically, seems to just get along with Lilly - is that a crime or something?

Neither do I. Look, we're all mature here, right?? Lilly and Joseph are both in their thirties. One has been holed-up in a countryhouse for the past year, hiding from his murderous ex-employers. The other has kept herself busy working for the past two years since her breakup with a Philly ADA. Like, you put the two together and of course sparks are gonna fly! ha ha ha... But seriously, I thought it's rather obvious that other than physical attraction, they both share: dedication to work, bad parents, bad siblings, love for cats, love for fellow human beings, humble beginnings, desire to exceed the disaterous life their parents lived, and so forth... If they didn't connect, then they weren't looking for someone to match with in the first place. I've been told: Date your opposite, Marry your same. Meaning, if you're not getting serious, then date someone who's going to open your mind to new things. When one's ready to settle down, find someone who views life the same way you do, so you don't get into silly little arguments about the toilet seat. Lilly and Joe get along so well, having experienced similar things on their own before meeting each other... I just find that very easy to understand here, and don't see what the confusion is either.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

It's stories like this one that make me think that the writers tend to rate "world-views" in the order of: Philosophy, Religion, then Superstition.. (Though Religion tends to be a close second, and Superstion a distant third.)

I think I get the religion, and philosophy, but where does the superstition come in?

Another way to look at the religious overtones of this show, especially with the song "If God was one of us." is that the two boys who started killing people become "Gods". You had that one who's online name was The Apocalypse (the end of times) which is a religious tone itself.

But in anycase these two boys pretty much became vengeful Gods, killing anyone and everyone without mercy. Of course the main reason they did this is because they were involked and offered something. Tina was going to film them, making them "famous"

Of course this is just theory.

[sonny]

Yey!! I watched it. An excellent season premiere in my opinion. The case was good and it kept me guessing all the way.
LOVED Lilly as always and thought her scenes with Joseph were amazingly well done. Not to full on that it shadowed the rest of the episode but gave us a clear picture that she seems to have finally found happiness and comfort with someone.
Really greatstuff and makes me look forward to the rest of the season even more.

;D ;D

[ruda]

I'll see this ep today or tomorrow so I don't wantread all your posts now ;D

but it would be nice if somebody made screencaps

[myril]

A good season opener. First the case: It was not a usual cold case, it was clear, who did it, there was only the question, was there a third shooter. Turned out, there wasn't, but more details about event and background were revealed. It's never understandable, a killing rampage never makes sense, but the more we seem to crave for reasons, ask why did it happen. Why is a haunting question especially for those involved, survivors, family, friends etc. - and that was something this episode catched pretty well. Whoever the team questioned, they all had their issues of feeling guilty, feeling responsible. It was an awful chain of events, linked through the people, but there is no single reason or motive: we can't actually answer,why. I loved, that at the end of episode, we're still left to wonder, it's a disturbing feeling and very real.

BTW, guess it would have been difficult because of the personal story lines, but I'm glad they didn't postponed the ep because of closeness to recent real events. Hope people can take it the way I see it: it's giving a chance for others to get more of an idea, what people are going through in such a situation.

The pictures were sometimes disturbing, on the edge but not over the top. Perhaps sometimes tough to stand though. Seldom have the itch to skip a scene, because I find it difficult to watch being emotionally too much drawn into it, but had one of these rare moments in this episode (partially out of personal reasons though). But Kudos for writing, directing and acting, especially for the acting of Tina. Liked that the flashbacks had this private video documentary style, especially in the killing spree scenes. A bit critical to do it that way, because that's how we often get to see stuff on news nowadays, but made it quite real, giving the feeling of seeing it as witness. It was fitting.

Coming to our detectives. Yeah, I agree with what some already said, this ep felt more right again, like getting finally some back of what made seasons 1 and 2. Still the detectives aren't unchanged and stuff from season 3 is clearly going on to work on them and that's ok, it has to. Our "new" single Vera, trying to have fun with his new freedom, though I think he will miss something sooner or later, Kat and her life situation as single mother - yup, maybe there is some story with unanswered love - , fatherly Stillman, caring for his troop, but who knows, maybe his troop will have to backup him for a change, Scotty dealing with suppressed childhood and family issues and then there is Lilly, hopefully still the focus of the show, having to deal eventually with more from her past but perhaps more with what she herself is ready or able to give in a relation.

Well, phew, the Lilly-Joseph-moments weren't as distracting as a part of me feared. But as a few others, I doubt this relation will stay the happy one it seems to be at the moment. The perfectly understanding guy, satisfied to always be second, job and troubled people first for Lilly? No, I don't buy that either. It's ok to see Lilly playfully, flirty and happy, a side she has and should enjoy, but I think, it's a side of her , that is sort of disconnected to other sides of her character and that calls for trouble. One, the main, reason for me, why I doubt it will stay an always happy relation. The other is that "too good to be to true" feeling. We know Joseph has is own issues, might be more at peace with himself than Lilly, but on the other hand: his going into hidding was quite an extrem reaction, wasn't it? And, well, sometimes people can get on your nerves, if they always seem to understand and accept what you do. Might be reasonable and great, nevertheless it can feel somewhat wrong after a while. Nope, the short scenes hadn't been total "yes ma'am"stuff, but it left a few like me with doubts. No one is perfect.

But better go on discussing that somewhere else. And some more other things to say, like about religious symbols, but in good time, entry already is long.

[Pixie]

I really like this episode, I felt that it was very strong.
I can imagine the horror IRL, but the actor did a good job showing these emotions after something like this.
Isn't this the only time that it's like investigating the murderers case, instead of "the victim(s)", but when you look closer to it, they were all victims.
It's kinda odd how the smallest thing can make a catastrophe like this, but I don't know how much Tina, should be held responsible, she was mad- almost raped,even though she was the one who said "do it",the boys already had the guns in their bags....

I also like the romance between Lilly and Joseph, he nice to her and he understands, because he's also a workaholic

All in all, it's a great season premiere, hopes the rest of the season is as good as this eppy ;D

BTW: what does "Damaged Goods" mean? hearing it (almost)all the time in CC

I'm sorry if it's "messy", just hope you get my point

[tiger_lilly]

It was an excellent episode for me as well.

First I have to say that Lilly looked really good. You could tell that a change has happened in her life. She acted more cheery and just overall different from the kind of sad Lilly we have seen for a long time in S3. Other than that it was great to see her in action so much. I loved the interrogation scene with Stillman and her talk with Tina at the end. Also the scene where her and Kat interrogate Dayton impressed me, they make a good team imo.

The theme of the episode was pretty disturbing and well done. The one who got to me the most was Tina, I think that girl did a hell of an acting job.

Now, about the bed scene; it was perfect! Not too sappy or cheesy as the preview might have suggested it would be. It was nice to see that Lilly can also be this kind of woman. And to see her happy was much needed. I hope we get to see more of what their relationship is like in the next episodes.

Great start of the season .

[boxman]

pixie said:

BTW: what does "Damaged Goods" mean? hearing it (almost)all the time in CC

Very good question.

"Damaged Goods" is an English-language idiom that usually refers to a person who hasn't fully gotten over a traumatic or tragic experience. In the US, this term is usually derogatory, with the implication that the person has a weakness in their character and therefore should be avoided.

To fully understand this phrase, you need to understand that Americans are generally a very optimistic group of people. We tend to like stories where an underdog or "everyday Joe" ascends the social or economic ladder. In pop fiction, think of Rocky Balboa and how as an unknown, he became a world-class champion boxer. Or Luke Skywalker, a farmboy that successfully rescues a princess and destroys the Empire's most potent weapon, the "Death Star". Or John Travolta, a hardware store clerk who becomes a disco king in "Saturday Night Fever". In real life, Americans make heroes out of people such as President Abraham Lincoln (who was born in a log cabin), talk-show host Oprah Winfrey (also born poor and abused as a child, she's now one of the richest women in the US), and even Arnold Schwarzenegger--an immigrant who became not only a Hollywood movie star, but also the governor of the most populous state in the US.

As a result, a person who is labeled "Damaged Goods" generally also receives the negative stigma of a person who hasn't tried hard enough to overcome their negative experience. You see, after a negative experience, Americans generally don't think that it's good enough to just get back to where one was before. Americans tend to like to see others use a negative experience to exceed the status that one was at before. In other words, "one step back, two steps forward", so to speak. "One step back and one step forward" isn't considered good enough.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?? I'm not really sure. For example, look at people's reaction to the Season Three episode, "8 Years". This was a classic tale of tragedy, yet many who saw this episode didn't like it, nor did they derive any special understanding or meaning out of watching the suffering in this episode. I think a primary reason for this is because the characters that survived Clem's murder--his friends Petey, Mae, and Sally--went on to live rather dull lives from the experience. Damaged goods?? Maybe...or maybe not. The episode's ending wasn't very uplifting, and it even used the Bruce Springsteen song with the lyrics "one step up and two steps back". All these factors go totally against the attitude of American optimism. Hollywood has difficulty making films/television shows that have this kind of tragic ending these days, and it seems to be a rather recent phenomenon too. (Ironically, Cold Case's Executive Producer, Jerry Bruckheimer, has a rather notorious reputation for making movies with happy, "Hollywood endings", especially during the 1980s and 90s.) Yet, it wasn't too long ago that Americans could accept movies such as "The Grapes of Wrath" that didn't have obvious uplifting endings, and yet consider such a film as a masterpiece.

So on one hand, American optimism generally gives us the strength to face challenges, persevere through tough times, and eventually find ways to reach higher levels of success. To find ways to be a "winner" rather than "damaged goods". Yet at the same time, it can cause us to be dismissive toward those who don't feel any need to go beyond their personally-accepted level of existence. When a person doesn't handle life's setbacks to our expectations, we can easily use phrases such as "Damaged Goods" to stereotype them as losers and therefore unimportant individuals. I think a basic level of human understanding is lost in this process. We can easily become selfish by not being able to put ourselves in another person's shoes and understand their suffering, nor their decisions on how they handled personal setbacks.

[In this episode, for example, the "Jocks" were dismissive to the mall workers. They'd give them labels such as "Litternator" (??). Obviously, this stems from the "Jocks" inability to see that another person's troubles could easily have been (or become) one's own. This is something that is learned when understanding the nature of tragedy: Each one of us can become victims to uncontrollable circumstances. In "Rampage", one result of the mall bullies' apathy towards the mall workers is that they themselves end up living their lives in fear, the very same situation they placed on Tina and the two shooters.]

So anyway, this is how I see the term,"Damaged Goods". On the positive side, it reflects American optimism and the drive to succeed and ascend. On the negative side, it reflects our tendency to label and dehumanize people, to not accept others for who they are and the decisions they make, and to not have the empathy and ability to understand that a person's bad fate can easily become our own suffering someday too. It's definitely a complex phrase to understand.

[boxman]

xuchilbara said:

I think I get the religion, and philosophy, but where does the superstition come in?

Well, everyone views the world through some type of framework. Philosophy, Religion, and Superstition are pretty much the three main influences to a person's view of the world. It's just my casual observation that the show ranks them in that order with Superstition last... For one thing, there were episodes where mirrors were broken and the "breakee" didn't necessarily get seven years of bad luck. Secondly, reading the repeated symbolisms in the series is similar to primitive superstition--and it doesn't always work. You know, somewhere in time, someone noticed that stepping on cracks in sidewalks leads your mother to break her back... ha ha ha.. Or more common, wearing a certain cap (and keeping it unwashed) helps your favorite sports team win games. Reading meaning into things such as colours, camera angles, "code words", set props, and other indicators in this series is like being superstitious. It's not a high-level form of perception, and there are many occasions where repeated symbols in this show doesn't seem to mean anything. (Thus dispelling the idea that noticing patterns--an important part of superstition--is a practice that leads to valid conclusions.) For example, in this episode, one guy takes care of horses because he doesn't like to be around people anymore. In the closing montage, there's a gold rocking-horse figurine next to a picture of one of the shooters. In "One Night", there's talk of riding horses, as was in "Boy in a Box". What does all these references to horses mean?? A connection to lonely/outcast boys and young men?? What's the importance of that?? It's easy to get lost and lose contact with the "true" storyline when trying to find meaning in such things, which is what I believe happens to people when they get too superstitious... Again, just a loose theory and very roundabout, but the fact that some repeated symbols in this show doesn't lead to valid conclusions seems in itself a way to dispel the idea that superstition is valued by the writers. Finally, a third point is that in spite of all the deaths in this show, they rarely deal with superstition, the occult, or any 'New Age' kind of spiritual beliefs. The show almost always poses a tough philosophical situation, or a situation that easily leads one to turn to faith or trust in God. Never towards occultism or superstition (thank God ), like, say...Bucky the Vampire Slayer, Bewitched, or Charmed.. Superstition just doesn't seem important in this series because of the abscence of it... I hope I made sense??

[Naj]

LillyKat said:
I’m having a hard time understanding why Joseph is being viewed as a too-good-to-be true individual when he, basically, seems to just get along with Lilly - is that a crime or something?

I agree with you. I think she's found some happiness. What we don't know is if or how the relationship will progress.

The Reverend Bizarre said:
I also liked this episode, because (at least to me) that everyone had a role in the shooting. Those two guys probaly would not have started shooting people, if Tina hadn't of offered to film them. Of course to say that Tina shot those people is absurd, but she did act as the detonator for those time bombs (Cameron, and that other guy.)

I think this does mimic life how circumstances can bring people together. Tina was a catalyst but we all have free will in our decisions. The method those two guy shot that courtyard was well portrayed as a video game. And BTW I realize they didn't play the Tina rape attempts to graphically because that wasn't what the story was really about and I was suprised all those guys (like 8 of them) did back off. Some might say those guys deserved to be shot.


oldgreygoose says:
Really did not enjoy this epsiode, not because it wasn't a good episode, but by the subject matter. This brings back moments of horror, because where I live, the citizens of the fair city of Montreal have had to deal with this type of shooting rampage twice in the last 18 years.


Cold Case deals with real life and I've found episodes that really got to me how cruel we humans can be and the motivation for actions of crime -- how very little can set someone off to commit them.


myril says:
The pictures were sometimes disturbing, on the edge but not over the top. Perhaps sometimes tough to stand though. Seldom have the itch to skip a scene, because I find it difficult to watch being emotionally too much drawn into it, but had one of these rare moments in this episode (partially out of personal reasons though).


I think this is where the director (Mark Pellington) did a good job on showing but minimizing the shooting like by using a sequencing of action in Tina's mind as she sat there by the pole in the court. I'm very sensitive to violence being shown and I did have to look a way during the rampage but I also expected that being a 9 pm time slot it might be a little more than we'd get at the earlier time slot. Still I think he didn't over do it. Just as they didn't over do the bedroom scene with Lilly and Joseph. There's no need to get to graphic about love making for this show.

[ruda]

I saw 4x01 Rampage a few minutes ago... WOW! EXCELLENT Season premiere!!!
Joseph is ok I thought he's stupid, but he's not Lil is soooo happy with him! YAY! I wanna next ep, NOW!

[longislanditalian2]

Everything in the ending montage lead to one unanwered question to another:
Camerons parents seeing him standing there as the camera pans to a younger version and one with his dad . Would he have been different if they interviened sooner, would he grow up to be a normal adult instead of the pyscho killer he was turning into ?

Scotty looking at the pictures of him and his brother, was he reliving a good memory of a bad one? Lilly lying next to Joseph in bed and how she smiles at him, was it fate that brought them together? The look in her eyes seems to suggest that she's very content and happy that he is in her life. Her eyes do show that she really loves him a lot.

[TVFan]

I’m having a hard time understanding why Joseph is being viewed as a too-good-to-be true individual when he, basically, seems to just get along with Lilly - is that a crime or something?

I'm having a hard time as well LillyKat, but I think this might just be one of those things where our experiences frame our opinions. Some people tend to have a more optimistic outlook when it comes to relationships and men like Joseph. And then there's the fact that movies and television rarely show us happy, healthy relationships (because they don't make for interesting stories). We're sort of conditioned to believe that if a guy seems too good to be true on TV, then he most definitely is and it's only a matter of time before his true nature shows through. A lot of us believe this in real life as well. I can't tell you how many times I've heard friends say that the guy they're daing must have a dark side because he's way too good to be true. When shows break from this too good to be true storytelling norm, we tend to suspect that something's up or the show is being unrealistic.

Perhaps, Lilly and Joseph's relationship is just in that early stage where nothing bothers you because you're so blinded by the attraction to that person. Will he always be OK with her saving people at 3 am? I don't know. I guess we'll have to see where the writers take this story. But, I do think it's too soon to say that Joseph or his relationship with Lil is "too good to be true."

[longislanditalian2]

Speaking of cats, I think at the end Tripod was sitting on Joseph.

[Disasterfreak]

BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!!!
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Ok... the episode was pretty good. The case was interesting and well done, I'd also sort of figured out Tina was it, but I loved her character and what they did with it, so I didn't mind. Predictable but coherent as human behavior goes. The two kid time bombs were pretty interesting characters too. Total psychopaths, no moral conscience whatsoever, almost as if they weren't even human.

Almost everything else has been said already, so I won't go into it.

The bed scene was a pretty eye-rolling business. I found it both cheesy and off character and I could well have done without it. Honestly, is there any show ever made that DOESN'T have a scene like that? Banter and girly flirtiness and everything? They took all the hauntedness that made Lilly special and turned her into any other leading girl on TV. Besides... I don't buy it. Lilly is a 30 something woman full of social backwardness and distrust... and she suddenly just unearths a guy "dodging the law", rolls over for him and everything's perfect? Please. That's just NOT the way it happens.

The romantic minds can argue as much as they like. As someone said before, it's a matter of how you see the world. The personal part of this episode was a sugar-coated version of it, a little overdone--maybe to serve as contrast to the obviously horrifying shooting?

[longislanditalian2]

Give him a chance DF, maybe the writers will devlop Joseph's character more. I glad Lilly is happy she needs some happiness but don't we all. Evne through I will also be a L/S shipper ,it could be worse if Lilly and Scotty had gotten together.