Ep. 3.23 Joseph *SEASON FINALE*

[boxman]

naj said:

...As far as Lilly being cocky, I've never thought that about her at all. I've never felt that about any of the detectives.

Naw...that's just me trying to stir-up the pot. I thought the tomato comment would work effectively as a big hint?? Still, I don't look too fondly on people who put careers over relationships, and my disdain includes not only Lilly, but extends to both Stillman and Vera too.

The Stillman/Lilly chew out: Let's face it. The boss is going to take corrective action no matter what. That was an excellent scene and well played by John and Kathryn. I loved the directing angles showing "how small" Lilly had become in that office, in rank, and in making decisions. I'm thinking to myself: "Oh not our dear Lilly."

Hey! Good eye!! I'm in total agreement with you here--that was an excellently filmed scene and the camera angles really did a lot for it!!

koufax said:

I beg to differ with Boxman and Naj. The detectives could have easlily taken a DNA sample from Josephs' brush, etc., and today it is used to ID bodies. As far as Stillman, if you remember in the George episode she also directly disobeyed Stillman when he told her to stay in the office and the UNREASONABLE reaction was no where near what he currently did.

Hi, Koufax--welcome to the board!! Are you ready for my grilling??

I don't see the need to use DNA samples (or even fingerprints) when other simpler, cheaper and still effective means are available.

The first assumption the original homocide team would make is that the victim was the person who lived in that apartment. This is reasonable, otherwise it is not likely the murderer would have shot through the door like they did without seeing the victim face-to-face. The occupant of that apartment, Joseph, was a witness to a murder two months earlier. Put that together with the way the shot was fired through the door, then its easy for the original homocide investigation to form the hypothesis that the murder was premeditated and done with the intention to silence a witness. (To back this theory up, the charges against Corey were eventually dropped due to lack of evidence. That's why Corey was still free to work at the railyard, and why the detectives would continue believing it was Joseph who was murdered.) Joseph's work as a drug councillor probably made him the enemy of a lot of drug dealers too, giving more reason for the detectives to continue along with that assumption.

As Joseph was a single professional, he probably lived in the apartment alone. This is something the detectives can reasonably assume by looking at the apartment's contents. The shot was fired through the peephole, indicating the door was still closed and locked. Who else but the occupant would be inside a locked apartment?? When Joseph went into hiding, isn't it fair for the original homocide detectives to continue to assume that the victim was the apartment's occupant?? Had Joseph gone to the police, then absolutely, more complicated analysis (such as DNA) would be necessary to ID the victim and determine why he was in an apartment that wasn't his. But this wasn't the case.

The original homocide detectives must have wrote a glowing report about Joseph, otherwise, Lilly wouldn't have been so impressed when reading about him. As they thought highly of his work at the Robinson House, why would they be suspicious that Joseph faked his own murder? After all, he was a witness to a murder. Wouldn't an outstanding citizen like Joseph appear for the trial against Corey, rather than fake his own death and let a murderer off the hook? There's no reason for those detectives to doubt the identity of the body was anyone other than Joseph.

Even more, we know that Joseph's brother was a loner, drifted between jobs, and didn't have close family or friends that would report him missing. No one was there to file a missing report on the guy, except for Joseph. Joseph, though, wasn't about to let the murderers know they killed the wrong person, thus allowing the police to continue making the wrong conclusion about the victim's ID.

The victim's body was probably also ID'ed at the City Morgue by several people, including his foster mom (who we know to be a complete mess), and by his employers, the Robinsons (who caused and committed the murder). These people probably all wrongly ID'ed the body; but as they gave collaborating (but false) positive IDs, why would the police need to go furthur and use more sophisticated testing to determine the victim's identity?? At this point, then, the coroner would proceed only to determine the cause of death, rather than do more extensive fingerprint or DNA testing to determine the victim's identity. The homocide detectives had delivered to him a body that was already ID'ed--mistakenly.

Finally, I haven't seen last season's finale; though you raise an interesting point about Stillman's reaction. Explain to me, why wouldn't Stillman be more frustrated and angry with Lilly this time, knowing that a year ago Lilly's disobedience nearly killed her??

I'm sorry we had to first meet on the board in this way, but I still don't see much wrong with the way the original investigation was handled, nor anything bothersome with Stillman's reaction. Thus, I really don't find anything to be disappointed with in this episode....

[Disasterfreak]

I've watched the dreaded thing. Overall, not as bad as I feared.

I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but since I'm going out anyway, might as well go out with a bang. Please put up with me one last time.

This episode had good things and bad things IMO. Good stuff first:

1. I liked Joseph. Not sure if Joseph the character, but I liked him physically. Not a pretty boy like McRay, but a MAN--strong, with rugged good looks and a great smile. Kind of person I probably would've latched on to, physically, as well.

2. There were some REALLY good camera shots. I watched it all in slow motion (more or less) and as a general thing the photography was great.

3. Scotty was sweet and caring. I didn't really mind him telling Lil "you lied to me?" Sure he's lied, but hey, no one comes down harder on sinners than those who have sinned themselves, and quit. Ask any former smoker! Their scene was a little contrived and unbelievable (Lilly would NEVER break into pieces like that, especially over a guy--maybe over her 49 or some traumatic experience, but not over a guy), but it was sweet.

4. There were some really good details, like the "she's never sick" comments and the way everyone glanced out of the corner of their eyes at her when they knew she was in for it.

5. Stillman yelling at her. Probably best part of the episode IMO. Very in character both ways. He wasn't overly harsh; she was acting like a damn moron and he put her in her place. Which is exactly what a boss has to do sometimes. Probably, like a parent, it hurt HIM more even than it hurt HER, or at least just as much... but it had to be done. Can't have a detective acting like a durn 11 yr old.

Bad stuff:

1. Well, the plot in general. It was contrived and full of holes, as everyone has already said. All much too complicated and senseless, motives weren't clear or believable IMO. But oh well.

2. Lilly falling in love with the idea of Joseph. Geez, that little pink-hearted, blinky gaze of hers had me rolling my eyes and going "oh please" several times. What is she--like 10? This is a grown woman we're talking about. No one falls in love with a picture, much less ditch work (or rational thought) to follow them like entranced fools, unless they're REALLY young (under 18 at least, because of all the idealism and sensitivity) or kinda soft in the head. Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's true most of the time. Certainly for our Lilly. But oh well. They had to throw a boyfriend at her somehow and they did it this way. May TPTB be pleased.

Overall--very cheesy, but it had its good points. I know Lilly's not perfect and it's kinda interesting she made a mistake--but do you guys HONESTLY think she would make THIS kinda mistake? I mean, would any of YOU do it? C'mon. A mediocre-ish finale to a mediocre season.

I'm sorry if I've hurt any feelings; this isn't supposed to be personal at all. I know it sounds like I think my truth is the only valid truth, but I know it doesn't work that way. You guys are probably better fans than I am since you can evolve with the show while I can't, which is why I've made this my series finale. Thanks for an excellent run, everyone.

[boxman]

disasterfreak said:

2. Lilly falling in love with the idea of Joseph. Geez, that little pink-hearted, blinky gaze of hers had me rolling my eyes and going "oh please" several times. What is she--like 10? This is a grown woman we're talking about. No one falls in love with a picture, much less ditch work (or rational thought) to follow them like entranced fools, unless they're REALLY young (under 18 at least, because of all the idealism and sensitivity) or kinda soft in the head.

Ha ha ha... That's what happens when people put their careers (and climbing the 'corporate ladder') over relationships--they don't know how to handle themselves in social situations. As McRay has said, she has come far. But she accomplished much in her career at the expense of not dating much, nor forming strong bonds with co-workers and others that she should have. Was it any surprise she wasn't there for Vera when he and his wife split? Why doesn't she go through the efforts to set up Jeffries on dates like how Scotty does?? Didn't she indulge herself a lot at poking Scotty on dating her sister?? She's been so busy playing the "tough cookie homicide detective", that she never built empathy for those always around her--just the crazy criminals she investigates and meets on a fleeting basis. Then, now that her feelings are stirred, she acts "kinda soft in the head". Not much of a surprise, I thought, that she's not acting like a "grown woman". Because she's not. Ha ha ha!!

The cliffhanger for this season to me is that now the facade has been lifted and these weird Lilly weaknesses have been revealed, I wonder how she's going to build her social graces and maintain that demanding career of hers?? Sorry, DF, that you've decided that you won't be around. (Although I'm willing to bet we'll see you here in September.) For me the show is getting even more fascinating now. I'm looking forward to seeing where the writers take her character in Season Four, especially now that there's a rather decent guy in her life. And he has a psychiatry kind of background too. This should be very interesting.

[canuckiepen]

Ok, here goes my 2 cents' worth now that I've seen the episode....

I can see why Lilly had a strong affinity for Joseph. Both had mothers up for "Mother of the Year Award" (sarcastic note). Both loved cats. Both are passionate about their work. "It's easier to get the life behind them", when referring to pictures of victims, rather than just sticking to the files which is identical to what someone said about Joseph..."It's important to him to see the lives behind the files." Loved that look Kat and Lilly exchanged, and Lilly there, almost gulping that one down before continuing the interview. I was soooo glad that there was another female dectective around for that one. It kinda makes it more accepting that's Kat is around and no one minds. The controversy is no longer there, now that there is an understanding person there for Lilly. What a change since SJB, eh?
And that comment, "Do you feel we have met before? Lilly says no (LIAR) and then she realizes that the feelings, irrational as they may be, are very strong and real. Let's root for Lilly! She found someone she can really connect to. Sure it may seem cliche, or even cheesy, but it happens sometimes. Give the 30-something gal some slack here for feeling what she does. I can see her in Joesph's place at the farm. "It's quiet here." Just what the doctor ordered eh? Someting tells me she'll be on probation and we'll see more of her in Season 4 and what she will be like with Joseph.
Also, I think that the clincher for Lilly and when she fell head over heels in love with this guy was when Joseh said,"I was upset about the whole thing, I wasn't thinking straight", when his cat got hurt and he had to take her to the vet. That's when Lilly smiled and just left, trusting him not to flee. I guess anyone who cares for their cat that much can make them trustworthy, huh?

So there you go. Whether anyone agrees or not is a moot point;it's the way I see things. As long as there is a Season 4, I don't care!
Ok, this absolutely verifies that I'm a hopeless romantic. SO SUE ME!

[TVFan]

DF - You made some valid points, even if we don't see the situation the same way. I appreciate what you had to say, and I'm glad you shared your feelings about the episode with us. I am also happy that you did enjoy some elements of the episode! I, too, thought that the Stillman/Lilly scene was one of the stand-outs from the ep. I will miss you greatly as a CC fan.

Naj - I forgot to mention this in my last post, but I LOVED your observations about the camera angles in that Lilly/Stillman scene. You were so dead on, and I hadn't thought about it like that. Looking back on it, we were also physically looking down on Lilly for her mistake. Excellent subliminal camera work!

[soccerulz]

DF: Well, I was all geared up for your post - and I'm glad you didn't hate it as much as I thought you were going to. But, I will miss ya' DF

canuckiepen: I couldn't agree more, it is sort of funny how we've come to accept Kat. And like you said, I LOVE that Kat was there to exchange that look with Lil. That's a girl thing all the way - it never would have worked with the guys.

[koufax]

Boxman-
Sorry to say but I disagree with you. Because he was the witness of a murder case that would be more reason to ID the body and make sure he was the victim. Also, CSI would have tried to find his murderer and would eventually figured out that Joseph was not the victim through DNA testing and other methods. CSI is also obligated to ID the body, if possible.
I CANNOT believe you never saw the George episodes. In my opinion they were the best COLD CASE episodes ever! To me, Stillman has always acted as a father figure to Lilly. It's not that he should not have been disappointed or angry-it was the manner in which he reprimanded her. Calling her Rush meant he was not on a personal level with her. When Scotty and Will made mistakes he was still personal with them. Also, Lilly did not just take Joseph's word; she did investigate it and this led to the murder being solved. That should be taken into consideration by Stillman. Because of Lilly's skills she was able to get George. Stillman never reprimanded her or said anything to Lilly about disobeying him. So to her, the Joseph episode was her first mistake-which she acknowledged in Stillman's office.

[boxman]

koufax said:

I CANNOT believe you never saw the George episodes. In my opinion they were the best COLD CASE episodes ever!

I guess this is where our difference of opinion stems from?? Apparently, "old-timers" not only besides yourself, but also DisasterFreak and Naj have come to expect more from the show. Myself, on the other hand, have only been watching this series from the start of 2006. I guess you folks have seen many episodes much better?? This is why I'm really aching for those DVDs!!! ;D

[Naj]

DF, are you leaving the show? Don't leave me here alone. I know things have kinda bombed (in my opinion) and it showed this season but .......

[boxman]

When I first saw this episode, my first impression is that Joseph is a love interest. Now thinking about it for the past week, I'm wondering if this is a correct conclusion?? Maybe:

a) Lilly sees what a good councillor Joseph was, and realizes he can help her sort her difficulties with her mother and sister.

b) Lilly sees how good Joseph is in understanding people. Joseph is just a 'guy friend' she wants to confide in to hook up again with Kite or McRay, or any of the single guys she works with. (Which is all of them...he he he.)

c) Lilly sees how happy and satisfied Joseph is without a love life, just dedicating his entire time to his work. She is attracted to him for the purpose in understanding how he balances his social needs without a social life. (Maybe he'll teach her yoga....)

Are there any other possibilities besides these? Other than Joseph being a romantic or sexual interest, what kind of outcome do people here see as an alternate possiblity for the two?? Just curious....

[koufax]

Hi Boxman,
I went on Ebay and got season one and two. I suggest you do that, because(in my opinion) the first two seasons are far superior to season three.

[koufax]

RE: Lilly and Joseph
More than likely, Joseph will be written out sometime, because if you noticed none of the detectives have a long lasting relationship. If they were to write him out a good episode would have him comprimising a case Lilly was involved with.

[michelle]

Boxman-- With the looks Lilly was giving Joseph?? Oh, she definitely has him pegged as a romantic interest, not just a guy friend/counsellor.

Koufax-- Give us all more info! Who did you get the full CC seasons from?

[koufax]

Re: Cold Case DVD's

you have to sign up for a membership (but its free) and then click buy now or add to cart.

Season 2:

www.ioffer.com/i/COLD-CASE-TV-Series-Complete-Season-2-DVD-11873258

i also bought season 1 from this guy and he says its still available, but i cant find him. so just ask him about it when you talk to him about season 2. enjoy!

[michelle]

I'm getting on ebay right now! Thanks for the tip!! I've searched for these and not been able to find them.

[boxman]

koufax said:

Hi Boxman,
I went on Ebay and got season one and two. I suggest you do that, because(in my opinion) the first two seasons are far superior to season three.

*ggg*
A bit ironic, I'm organizing to get the official DVDs released. It would make me quite a hypocrite to contact these people, so I'll pass for now!! Thanks for the info though!

[frenchfan]

wow I am very astonished, 25% among you hated this episode . How this is possible to hate as much an episode of cold case. Ok, I didn't see this episode, I read some remarks of some among you (I don’t want all to know to keep whole suspense,I believe that it is too late). But I have evil to understand, for my part certain episodes could disturb me in my personal convictions or sometimes I did not like the story but never at the point of saying "Hated it". The actors became bad!!, the scenario so improbable , I have really evil to understand that.

[sonny]

Don't worry frenchfan, I personally find it difficult to understand why someone would hate it too. I mean there must be some element that made it okay??? Isn't there???

[Disasterfreak]

For the record... ;D

I didn't hate it. I voted it was "okay". Not that it REALLY makes a difference, but just wanted to point that out. ;D

[sonny]

disasterfreak said:

For the record... ;D

I didn't hate it. I voted it was "okay". Not that it REALLY makes a difference, but just wanted to point that out. ;D

Don't worry DF I knew you wouldn't have gone for hating it cos you did point out moments you did like.