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Post by schafferius on May 22, 2006 17:43:43 GMT -5
Wow....just wanted to say a big big thankyou to TVFAN!!!! For some reason no-one has put the episode on mininova yet which means I have not received this weeks hit of cold case. Arrgh withdrawals withdrawals......but cause of you TVFAN I get to see the best parts on Pass the Remote. Thanks so much mate =)
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michelle
Loyal to Look Again
Lilly's GT Monkey [/color]
Posts: 1,047
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Post by michelle on May 22, 2006 17:48:52 GMT -5
Yikes, I didn't mean to get anyone riled up. I'm all for developing the character, I'm all for Lilly finding happiness, it just seemed (to me) that it was very sudden and forced quickly into an episode. I would have loved to see a slow progression of change, over maybe half a season, that would have led to this. I think "Beautiful Little Fool" was a good beginning (just my opinion again) but it should be more than a 2 step process. I think it would have been better to play this out with a lot of doubt and some torment on Lilly's part. However, maybe that is to come next season.
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Post by schafferius on May 22, 2006 18:07:53 GMT -5
Hmmmm.....despite the fact that I have not seen the season finale yet I am a little sad to hear about the plot not being so good. Throughout this season I have found that the episodes are becoming more and more predictable. Don't get me wrong I luuuuurve the show but every time I see an episode and can guess the perpertrator correctly from the first 10 minutes it makes me a little more dissapointed each time. In Australia they have had a break from Season 3 and are replaying a few season 2 episodes (some of which I have not seen). The season 2 episodes appeared to have many more characters and, thus, suspects which made it difficult to predict and suprised at who the murderer turns out to be. Season 3 seems to have a lot less characters.
I am all for more character stuff but it seems they are showing stuff at the expense of the cases sometimes. Anyone else feel asa though they are being more predictable?
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Post by ann415 on May 22, 2006 20:28:56 GMT -5
I thought the episode was good, not great, but pretty good. And while I'm glad that we got a good Lily-episode, and a love interest I felt that her similarities with Joseph were sort of forced down our throats a little. But I liked the scenes between Lily and Scotty and Lily and Stilman.
And I don't actually remember what the guy who played the husband had been in before that he's left enough of an impression on me as a bad guy that I immediatly had him pegged as the killer the first time I saw him. However after reading a post in which someone mentioned he was in Angel, I realized that might have been it.
I good end to season 3.
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Icz Queen
Desk Clerk I
Not every woman wants to be saved
Posts: 25
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Post by Icz Queen on May 22, 2006 20:39:14 GMT -5
Though I've been watching CC for only 3 months but it sure nice to see Lilly smiled in the end (and what a beautiful smile she has  ) I think it was amazing in the end of an episode where she just walked right into Joseph's house without waiting for his invitation. I feel like she finally let herself go and "be" herself for once. I mean, of all the work, I feel like she finally put aside someone's else sadness/problems and decide to find happiness for herself. It would be interesting to see how this relationship goes. God, I hope it lasts!  Last but not least, I can't stop listening to a song "Collide" by Howie Day all day  This song is absolutely perfect for this amazing ending; "But somehow I'd find you and I collide." |
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Post by atrayuh2 on May 22, 2006 21:33:56 GMT -5
it's ok, Michelle, I understand certain points that you've made as well. And someone posted that it's good/bad depending on what you look for in a show....wow, how absolutely succinct and true.  sonny, I'm one of the many on this forum who understand you are a huge fan...we all are for one reason or another or we wouldn't be here. I don't think anyone said they hated the eppy or the show....it was just a little harder for us to find credible. but I can respect how you feel about what you saw, and I know that you can respect if not understand another view, yes? that's the beauty of this board. just goes to show that CC is worth watching.  |
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jazzyb
Desk Clerk II
Posts: 61
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Post by jazzyb on May 22, 2006 22:44:13 GMT -5
Michelle, I echo your thoughts about this episode, it was not as dramatic as the previews led us to believe but then I'm getting used to that from CBS. I am really disliking the Scotty Valens character; his chronic lying borders on pathological and I found it absurd that he should question Lilly (or anyone else for that matter) about her actions when he's in and out of the dog-house every other episode. I wonder if it strikes the higher-ups at Philly PD as worrisome that Papa Stillman's detectives all seem to be unraveling at the seams?: Jeffries cold-cocks the ADA, Scotty can't manage to control his emotions, and now Lilly pulls some bone-head stunt. Shouldn't they question his leadership skills?
And even though Cold Case is not CSI, there should be some allusion to the fact that fingerprint and DNA identification are products of the 20th century and therefore SOP for forensics (Frannie girl where are you?). The gaping plot holes are too distracting and it throws the show off-kilter for me. It's as if the writers are struggling to fit 90 minues worth of material in a 44-minute format. But I'll be back for Season 4 because I'm undeniably hooked on Kathryn Morris.
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Post by sonny on May 23, 2006 8:32:16 GMT -5
it's ok, Michelle, I understand certain points that you've made as well. And someone posted that it's good/bad depending on what you look for in a show....wow, how absolutely succinct and true. sonny, I'm one of the many on this forum who understand you are a huge fan...we all are for one reason or another or we wouldn't be here. I don't think anyone said they hated the eppy or the show....it was just a little harder for us to find credible. but I can respect how you feel about what you saw, and I know that you can respect if not understand another view, yes? that's the beauty of this board. just goes to show that CC is worth watching. Hey sorry if I come over a little strong I'm just way passionate about the show and have always made my opinions perfectly clear. It was me that said the 'it depends on what you look for in the show thing' and I'm glad you agree. I can see how some can find the ep a little harder to find credible and that is influenced by each of our own take on what has occured before, our own personal circumstances and our feelings on what Lilly is like or how she should be. I personally have always just tried to keep my faith in the writers as they ultimately write the Lilly character and know how they want her to develop her in the future. I'm really sorry that some viewers don't like that and I hope that there are elements of the show that still bring you back next season. I can certainly respect everyones views but sometimes not necessarily understand them as I'm sure people don't understand mine. I also so agree that it's great that a show can bring about so much discussion and feeling. It keeps things interesting and certainly keeps the writers of the show [if they read this board] on their toes as far as writing future episodes goes!! ;D ;D |
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koufax
Desk Clerk II
Posts: 93
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Post by koufax on May 23, 2006 8:47:51 GMT -5
I was very disappointed in this episode. The dialogue was not great and the story had a lot of holes. First, wouldn't the police in 2005 use DNA and dental records to ID the victim. Second, Stillman has ALWAYS acted as a father figure to Lilly and I DO NOT think he would have reacted in that manner.(i.e. think of the "GEORGE" episode.) He might have been angry, but he would have acted more like he did with Scotty and Will when they went over the line. Anyway, I feel she did use her police instincts which is why she followed up Josephs' story. Stillman should make amends next season. Maybe a better finale would have been for James to get out of jail and stalk Lilly.
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papertiger
Desk Clerk II
Faithfull to Cold Case [/color]
Posts: 54 
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Post by papertiger on May 23, 2006 11:37:05 GMT -5
aaahhh!! I missed the episode!! not only that, but I can't seem to find a torrent for it anywhere online!!  any suggestions as to where I can get a copy of the episode? |
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Post by TVFan on May 23, 2006 12:16:22 GMT -5
Wow, this was certainly a very polarizing episode! That's not a complaint at all, just an observation. I'm enjoying reading everyone's points of view about the ep, Lilly and everything in between. I agree that Scotty was a little harsh, especially considering his penchant for messing up. But Lilly handled it very well. Stillman was also harsh, but I don't think it was out of character. What Lilly did could have ruined their entire case. She wasn't thinking clearly and Stillman had no idea why. She never did explain herself to him, so he's probably still unsure. I really think that the reason behind his tremendous outburst was the fact that he was sooo disappointed in Lilly, just as a father would be with his daughter. Parents always seem to get the most upset and worked up when their children disappoint them. And on top of it, she lied. Of course, she couldn't lie to Stillman, so she had Scotty do it, but she lied all the same. A big "Amen" to this BAM. I really couldn't agree more with every word that you wrote here, especially this: "There is nothing wrong if a man makes her happy (that does not make her weak" This is another polarizing concept, so I don't want to dwell on it, but there is definitely a misconception (especially when it comes to Lilly) that finding a man to make you happy = weakness. Lilly is still Lilly whether she has someone in her life or not. The only thing Joseph or any other guy is going to do is give her someone to come home to. We know from this season that she didn't want to be alone anymore, and as BAM so eloquently pointed out, she told us, Kite and herself that she was going to change. Joseph was simply the push that she needed because he stirred up feelings in her that she wasn't used to feeling. I strongly feel that she will be just as "strong" as she has ever been next season with or without Joseph. I'm glad you guys are enjoying the video clips. |
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Post by Naj on May 24, 2006 14:35:01 GMT -5
Okay I just wanted to add a few more things probably already been said. I loved the Vera line: "she's sick." To which Jeffreys responds: "she's never sick". also the look of all the detectives when Lily was calling for Joseph. I like that kind of humor. John Finn was scary. I mean you knew he was "boss". The shot of Lilly coming in his office from above and behind Stillman was brilliant. It represented what a screw up Lilly really was. (we always want her to be good, right?) And who the boss really is in the Philly Homicide.
Also I don't feel Lilly is out of character. She has evolved since season one. She's realizing that being stuck in her past is creating a void in her life. She's is not experiencing those things in life that would complete her. That's the biggest change we see Lilly facing in Season three. "Move on and find love and happiness" or "stay angry and be mad at mommy".
I thought this a very good case. I like more simplistic cases and I didn't have a clue who had committed the crimes. I thought the ep was a great balance of Lilly and the case. Susan Walters was a pleasant surprise. (I'm a Y&R fan - only soap I watch). She had been on the FOX Point Pleasant last summer. And Joseph, I liked him very much. Whether or not we see more of him I liked him over the MC Man.
Oh edited to add: I don't know what Stillman will do when he finds out what Scotty did. I feel what Scotty did is criminal. And as far as what Lilly did not being able to be fixable. Maybe Stillman meant it was a big error and that nothing could correct it. So unless Lilly is fired, they'll just have to go on I guess. So maybe Lilly and Scotty will be on the phone desk for the entire duration of season 4. ;D
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Post by soccerulz on May 24, 2006 14:39:03 GMT -5
I loved those parts too Naj! "She's never sick" ;D
And I thought that scene with Stillman was, as you said brilliant. I mean, we'd seen Stillman sort of crack down on some of the other workers -but never Lilly. And I think TF executed that scene really well. You could FEEL his disappointment in her. I thought it was great.
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on May 25, 2006 1:25:20 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I'm rather busy in the real-world now, (and I'm still not even finished with my comments on "The River" either!), so I'm going to try to keep this post short and cover just the main points.... I gave this episode an "It was excellent" vote. I'm not in agreement with those who were disappointed with supposed 'flaws' in this episode. For one thing, Lilly's "emotional breakdown" has pretty much been obviously building up since I first started watching this show with episode 3.11, "8 Years". Haven't we all been suspecting something like this for quite a while?? I thought there were very strong indications of this all the time. I didn't find it odd that the Philly PD wrongly ID'ed the murder victim either. For one thing, it's been a very long recurring theme in this show that the Philly PD doesn't go about their work thouroughly or very professionally all the time. Also, the arguments about dental records or DNA doesn't really hold up IMO. For one thing, the guy's face was blown off. When watching the show, I assumed that his jaw and teeth were also destroyed or displaced beyond recognition too. DNA analysis, to my knowledge, is not normally used to identify victims in a situation like this. (It's my understanding that its used moreso to match evidence left at a crime scene with possible suspects.) In this situation, DNA from a relative could be used to say with some likelihood that the victim is related. (They've done this to identify victims of ethnic cleansing that were buried in mass graves in Kosovo and Iraq, if I recall correctly.) But both Joseph and his brother were orphans--they have no blood relatives to give DNA samples for ID purposes. Fingerprints?? Okay, that is something the original homocide detectives could have analysed. Still, on the other hand, the episode established earlier that Joseph's brother stole things from him. Perhaps a wallet or other ID on him caused the detectives to pass off doing a fingerprint match. A mistaken ID from personal items on his body was a plausible conclusion to me. I also didn't find anything wrong about Stillman getting down so hard on Lilly either. Unlike Scotty's and Jeffries' mistakes, Lilly pretty much directly disobeyed Stillman's arrangement for her and Scotty to go out to Joseph's farm the next day. I can see how Stillman can pull strings to cover for mistakes Scotty and Jeffries made, but for Lilly to do what she did (and the kind of consequences it had), puts Stillman in a spot. I thought his rage was caused more by disappointment, rather than anger. Disappointment that his star detective would cross his command and lie to him the way she did. This episode had a lot of rather pleasant surprises and unexpected twists I hope to be able to go into more deeply later. But for now, let me just say that I was rather happy to see Scotty kick Lilly's butt into place for once. She's rather cocky to me, putting her career and psychological need to prove herself above building deep and meaningful relationships with the people around her. Their converation was a surprising incident, and I'm glad to have seen him bring her down a notch and show her that she's human like the rest of us. I think its about time Lilly had her slice of humble pie. Ha ha ha....  *boxman ducks to avoid the flying tomatoes*ETA: BTW, TVFan, excellent entry in your blog! I got to read that earlier on Monday. You always surprise me with how incredibly well and quickly you write!! |
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Post by Naj on May 25, 2006 8:45:38 GMT -5
Hi boxman, I agree with much that you said about the case. I thought it was riveting and would have been even better had I stayed out of the Spoiler forum. It's obvious we have a bunch of defective detectives out working on important matters. It reminds me of our local police/investigators. They screw up all the time. I think what is surprising to some who have been with the show from day one is that we may have all wanted to think that Lilly is perfect and we're finding she's not as high up there in judgment than we believed. As far as Lilly being cocky, I've never thought that about her at all. I've never felt that about any of the detectives. The Stillman/Lilly chew out: Let's face it. The boss is going to take corrective action no matter what. That was an excellent scene and well played by John and Kathryn. I loved the directing angles showing "how small" Lilly had become in that office, in rank, and in making decisions. I'm thinking to myself: "Oh not our dear Lilly."  The part I don't understand is the killing of Joseph. I know it was dark but Joseph's hair was completely looking different from his foster brother. So that part I didn't get how he was mistaken. Guess the guy didn't look just assumed. When they showed Lily going to the farmhouse in the dark with a flashlight and her gun I immediately felt a part of The Woods element. I wish they hadn't have done that. The ending scene in the bar I thought was more representative of Lilly's change. This season she would come in late to Thursdays and now she just doesn't show because she's found something else to do with her time. |
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koufax
Desk Clerk II
Posts: 93
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Post by koufax on May 25, 2006 9:42:07 GMT -5
I beg to differ with Boxman and Naj. The detectives could have easlily taken a DNA sample from Josephs' brush, etc., and today it is used to ID bodies. As far as Stillman, if you remember in the George episode she also directly disobeyed Stillman when he told her to stay in the office and the UNREASONABLE reaction was no where near what he currently did.
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Post by Naj on May 25, 2006 10:40:12 GMT -5
Glad you brought that up, koufax. About Lilly leaving the headquarters. I wondered that too why that was okay and this time not. I guess there must be some police rule that you can't allow someone in the case to affect you so personally that you cross lines of code. I think that is what Stillman is so angry about with Lilly. I beg to differ with Boxman and Naj. The detectives could have easlily taken a DNA sample from Josephs' brush, etc., and today it is used to ID bodies. As far as Stillman, if you remember in the George episode she also directly disobeyed Stillman when he told her to stay in the office and the UNREASONABLE reaction was no where near what he currently did. |
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Post by sonny on May 25, 2006 10:53:30 GMT -5
YEY! I've seen it. And just as I predicted I loved it! Really liked Joseph [dreamy voice!!] and I think him and Lilly mesh really well. Not alot was said but a great deal was revealed in their mannerism.
Liked the convo between Scotty and Lilly. Scotty was acting a little over protective again, like he does. I particularly liked the bit when Lilly said she'd screwed and he had to turn away and clear his throat. I felt that he desperately wanted to do what would come naturally to him and comfort her but knew she wasn't one to accept that kinda thing so turned away. He still did his 'are you alright here' thing though which was sweet. He looked so disappointed in the bar that she wasn't there with them. Thought that was way sweet.
Loved the stern Stillman giving Lilly a telling off. I agree with what some have said that I think he was more disappointed with her than angry. Just wondering what the consequences are gonna be. I loved the way Kathryn flinched when he yelled.
I was actually suprised how much the other guys were in the ep, and I really feel that Kat has become part of the furniture now. I like her.
As always Kathryn was amazing. Looked totally gorgeous and I loved that frilly white shirt she was wearing. Very pretty.
I thought this episode was a great end to the season. Refreshing, cos in season 1 and 2 Lilly was left in a bit of a mess and this time she seemed happy.
I definately want to see Joseph back next season.
Best of the season for me.
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Post by TVFan on May 25, 2006 11:50:41 GMT -5
I totally had shades of "The Woods" as well Naj! I think the fact that Lilly did this before and it led to her being held at gun point was part of the reason Stillman was so mad this time. I'm sure she got in trouble last season when she pulled it, but not as much because she almost wound up shot (and Stillman probably felt a little guilty about it). Now, all bets were off because she directly disobeyed an order again. I really don't think that Stillman knows about Lilly's feelings for Joseph. boxman - I never thought about the fact that the real victim might have had his brother's wallet on him. Didn't he try to take it from him in one of those flashbacks? CC loves to play on subtleties, so I think that you're right about the wallet/ID. Like Veronica Mars, CC falls into that noir genre where things are much more gray than black and white. As an audience, we're so used to having everything spelled out in black and white, that we easily miss the gray areas. I think this was a perfect example of such a case. Oh, and thank you for your kind words about my entry. sonny - I agree that Kathryn looked amazing. I think this episode was the best she looked all season! |
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Post by Naj on May 25, 2006 13:03:49 GMT -5
Good point about the contrast of The Woods and Joseph as to Lilly alone. Well, we don't know what happened to Lilly afterwards in the PD since they threw away all the momentum of season two's storylines. That was such a let down for me. I really wanted in inside view of Lilly and camp afterwards. We didn't get it. We know it was more than just tossing thepaper into the trash. There had to have been conversations.  |
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