Ep 6.23 Into the Blue

[eduardodelroice]

I still don't buy it myril... And another thing is that I like character developement but what I hate about WAT or CSI Miami is the soap opera they have become... I do not like these episodes where the personal drama is everything

[The Reverend Bizarre]

OK. TRB. But anyway... Arent dreams almost always suggested by what have happened to us, by our goals, fears and that stuff?

Well, yes, and that's what happens with Lilly's dreams. If you examine the episode closely you'll notice clues that nearly everyone in the episode is an aspect of Lilly herself (whether it be her personality or something that affected her.) As someone mentioned, Kate is Lilly's alter ego or, the part of Lilly that would have gotten revenge against her attacker. Another big one was the "relationship" between Kate and James. I'm now almost certain that part was meant to parallel the relationship between Paul and Lilly. The letter is one huge give away but, so is the fact that if you pay close attention to Kate and James there's practically no romantic chemistry between them. And then we have the factor that Lilly's attack might have prevented had her father been there. Same as how Kate's attack might have been prevented had James been there to watch over her.

So Lawrence represents Lilly's attacker. James represents Lilly's father.

Moe Kitchener, I feel is supposed to be an archetype for every man that Lilly's ever faced who didn't want her becoming a detective.

Ryan might in fact represent the side of Lilly who never felt like she fit in. While we can't be too sure, it is possible that there might have been times that Lilly flirted with the idea of suicide but obviously never went through with it. What's also funny is Nick's response to Ryan, "You don't have to do it yourself because, I'm going to do it for you."

This is something that the real Nick would not say. It also matches what Lilly told that one boy in "Officer Down" I get the feeling that Nick represents the part of Lilly that would really just love to shoot the criminals and get it over with.

It's that Lilly never suspected of Ryan or at least not like Lawrence... How come she was dreaming about Ryan??? Lame

How do we know she didn't? For all we know she could have suspected Ryan but, really wanted to believe it was Lawrence based on that letter. And in the dream she's told that Lawrence's 'religious' hate letter had to do with him being religious and NOT because he was going to murder Kate.

[eduardodelroice]

Anyway... That "dream" stuff was really like IDK how to describe it... It fits so well, That for me, It looks lame... It's my opinion

[myril]

It depends for me pretty much on the show and the characters if I like personal drama episodes or not.

Have a hard time to buy this turn into a dream thingy at the end.

Allright, they wanted to give the fans some nice stuff to see, after all the show once has started with the basic plot of the lone first female detective in Philly homocide, it was a great nodd to all, who have watched the show from the start. Thanks for that.

The big question was not to throw in some flash back hallucinations of Lilly's personal story but to turn it in the end into something somewhat plausible. Guess letting her have some severe PTSD related weird moments wasn't enough or too boring, so we have this dream thing. Oh well.

Water = repressed emotions -- unsolved issues -- the world of memories --- the many-sided symbolism of the color blue here - so okay, it might make some sort of sense in the end.

Oh, btw, did anybody else wonder, what kind of waterproofed paper and ink Lilly's father might have used to write his letter? Sorry, just some minor thing I noticed. The letter looked surprisingly untouched in her fist in the end.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Lilly became the 'Hanged Woman' in that episode.

Oh, btw, did anybody else wonder, what kind of waterproofed paper and ink Lilly's father might have used to write his letter? Sorry, just some minor thing I noticed. The letter looked surprisingly untouched in her fist in the end.

I noticed that too but, I also seem to recall that once was out of the water the letter was gone.

[leni810]

I just saw the episode!!
It was the best finale ever!!

At the start I thought that Lil had hit her head and that's why all and in fact I was a bit disappointed because her flashbacks weren't relevant to the case itself.
To tell the truth at the beginning I said so easily she was saved? Why all this? Why the phone?? But I said anyway let's see.
I suspected that something wasn't fitting, first with Scotty's reactions during the interogations... You have a partner hit, about to faint and you just observe her?? Anyway I said he knows that she wouldn't accept help, mostly in front of a suspect...
At the time she spoke about her father's letter (this letter should be left in the car so it couldn't be on her desk...) "Another delusion??", I thought "But to this level??" Something was going on...
At the final interogation I was at the edge of my seat!! Lilly would broke up in front of her almost murderer??!! No it couldn't be!! She couldn't lose it!! "You can't keep the flood... I locked you, too..." When she turned her eyes and he was gone I was sure that she was still in the car!
And finally Lilly isn't alone! She has her father, right there, beside her!

KM is a Great Actress! She actually passed the emotions to the viewer!! This girl deserves an Emmy for this ep!!

(What I didn't get was that finally the guy they found hang in Lil's dream, wasn't really hang, eh?)

BEST BEST episode!
Cold Case deserves a 7th season! They actually won it!!

(Sorry I'll read all the previous posts tomorrow because it's pretty late here and I will sleep over the keyboard...)

[myril]

Hope you had a good sleep, leni Interesting, that Scotty's behavior gave you a first idea, that something wasn't fitting. Hm, funny, I started seriously wondering, the moment Stillman appeared sort out of the blue (sic!) before the hospital.

May 12, 2009 18:32:39 GMT -5 The Reverend Bizarre said:

Lilly became the 'Hanged Woman' in that episode.

Rev - like this one? Discovered it by chance.

Hm, the hanged (wo)man: (spirit of) water, sacrifice and rebirth, a (forced) change of view, transformation, a temporary recess in progress, a moment of failure pointing a person into the right direction, sacrifice yourself to gain knowledge (Odin), a time of deep insight, open your mind and let go of old habits and views to gain a new perspective (on yourself and life) ... You're right, fitting.

Interesting thoughts about what sides of Lilly might have been represented by who.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Hurm, close. I was thinking closer to the lines of the Hanged (wo)man representing the Fool's hanging upside down to gain access to the mundane and spiritual world.

From aeclectic.net

The Fool settles beneath a tree, intent on finding his spiritual self. There he stays for nine days, without eating, barely moving. People pass by him, animals, clouds, the wind, the rain, the stars, sun and moon. On the ninth day, with no conscious thought of why, he climbs a branch and dangles upside down like a child, giving up for a moment, all that he is, wants, knows or cares about. Coins fall from his pockets and as he gazes down on them - seeing them not as money but only as round bits of metal - everything suddenly changes perspective. It is as if he's hanging between the mundane world and the spiritual world, able to see both. It is a dazzling moment, dreamlike yet crystal clear. Connections he never understood before are made, mysteries are revealed.

But timeless as this moment of clarity seems, he realizes that it will not last. Very soon, he must right himself, and when he does, things will be different. He will have to act on what he's learned. For now, however, he just hangs, weightless as if underwater, observing, absorbing, seeing.

From the Baphomet Tarot.

Aspects

The fount of knowledge or the drying spring of life as aspect of the eternally feminine (Wotan himself drank from the source and paid for inner vision with the loss of his eyesight)

Short Formula

Urge Self-punishment, self-mutilation and self-sacrifice
Motivation Insight and a new world view, or the state of being trapped which lasts until we are ready to let go of old images for new insight
Light Deferment of ego; turnabout in life; selflessness (the Hanged Women is always her own victim!)
Shadow Standstill, resistance and self-destruction (dissolution, misery, discontentment, need)

[leni810]

May 13, 2009 1:59:24 GMT -5 myril said:

Hope you had a good sleep, leni Interesting, that Scotty's behavior gave you a first idea, that something wasn't fitting. Hm, funny, I started seriously wondering, the moment Stillman appeared sort out of the blue (sic!) before the hospital.
...

In fact I didn't. It started to get hot here and my blanket was thick...
Anyway!!
Look at Scotty's behaviour in Lil's dream and in reallity. They are totally different and the second is what you expect from him. She is his partner and Scotty is expressive. Everyone was a little cold, if you noticed. Kat was, too, when she met Lil in front of the jeep.

I didn't thought that about Stillman. Didn't he actually appear after the hospital? The car finding Lil was a passed by,wasn't it?
After second thoughts it was a bit weird that the night had turned to a day and no one was at the hospital with her or the fact that her father didn't know about the accident... It should be on the news... But at the beginning I was curious and in fact I didn't expect that this would be a dream. I had thought of it but I had thought also that if it would be a dream Lil would wear the same clothes with the accident but the writers took care of it so as to mislead us...

Nice note about Vera's quote to Ryan... It didn't fit. Ryan wasn't threatening them. Vera had no right to shoot him.

Interesting this with the parallism, Rev!

Eduardo,me too I don't like the dreams in series or serials because they are frequently used to explain every weakness in the stories but this was totally different!
They threw ups and throughs everywhere but you didn't have always the time to realised them and if you did, you keep thinking "It couldn't be...", her mind didn't work well that's all. This was what mounted the tension at the end! You just thought that the character will be devastated and with the compassion built up for her all these years it was heartbreaking for the viewer and very clever for the writers! You believed for a moment that "yes, finally no one can be strong enough to keep the flood away"...
Good are the police stories but they are always the same pattern, an ainigma. The characters are who they can make the stories take off. CC has it and that's what it makes it unique and if they wanted they could make it the best ever!

[The Reverend Bizarre]

I didn't even pay any heed to the night time to day time thing but, now that you mention it; there is something up with that. For all we know, in the dream she could have teleported to the hospital or she might have actually walked. It's hard to say because time is meaningless in dreams.

I've also noticed some other things too.

1. I now seriously doubt that Lawrence was killed. For one thing they never try to really find who did it. Second of all, he doesn't appear as a ghost victim at the end. Third, the only character who would have had a motive to kill Lawrence would have been Lilly. Even Moe's motive was incredibly weak.

Oh he killed Lawrence so as to get Lilly off of his trail. Wait, what.

And at the end, just before Lilly is woken up, Moe does say "Oh so Lawrence is actually dead now?" as if telling us that he's not really dead.

2. When Lilly has those slips of consciousness in her dream, those could represent the times where Lilly was starting to wake up. I think she didn't want to leave the dream world though so struggled to stay in.

3. That shot where the glass starts cracking and the water starts pouring in. It's set up in such a way that we see Lilly in the mirror. Mirrors are said to be gateways to dream worlds/other worlds. So it's fitting that what causes Lilly to return to the "mundane world" is a mirror breaking.

[longislanditalian2]

@rev- at the last scene Lilly drifted back into the dream, that's why we see little lilly at age six happily riding her bike.

[eduardodelroice]

@rev. In the episode "One small step": Seth also died and we didn't see him in the end so It does not mean that Lawrence was killed and we don't even know for sure if it was him who tried to kill Lilly with the car

[longislanditalian2]

That the irony, not knowing if Lawrence was killed but I doubt he tried to kill Lilly. I think Moe probably had something to do with it. If CC did one thing was it left us all in suspence, which means it was well written

[eduardodelroice]

then who hit Lilly with the car?
Ryan or Mo?

[longislanditalian2]

May 13, 2009 8:25:04 GMT -5 @eduardodelroice said:

then who hit Lilly with the car?
Ryan or Mo?

I think the writers left it up to us to decide on that, since we only saw them solving the case at the end and Lilly's Hallucinations during the episode. That's why this episode was unique, that sense this letting the audience us figure it out for ourselves.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

@rev. In the episode "One small step": Seth also died and we didn't see him in the end so It does not mean that Lawrence was killed and we don't even know for sure if it was him who tried to kill Lilly with the car

I don't remember ever saying that Lawrence was the one who ran Lilly off the road.

then who hit Lilly with the car?
Ryan or Mo?

Moe. I'll explain why when I'm not so tired.

[longislanditalian2]

Perhaps Lawerence was killed, but perhaps the writers emphazied more attention on the real victim ; Kate. Thus why Lilly first saw her before the case was actually solved, then Kate's father as well. I don't know..

[eduardodelroice]

Nobody knows... Too much was left to our imagination
I still can't understand why Lilly would dream the same exact thing that happened in real life and more when she suspected of Lawrence...
Too many things left unexplained

[longislanditalian2]

Actually having it left up to our imagination is the samething as if you were reading a book,
This episode was very creative and well done, you rather have things left unexplained in order to let the viewers ( us) each decide for ourselves of what happened. Not everything on this show needs to be explain or will be.

There was dozens of possible theories of what happened, leading to the conclusion that the writers have done their jobs( leaving us guessing)

[ali]

Wow, those are very interesting theories!
I'm enjoying reading this thread just like I loved the episode (in my opinion, one of the best of all times).

Can I contribute to the brainstorming?

My idea, about Lawrence's death, is that in the real life he wasn't killed.
Everything we saw was a dream/allucination: it was like looking into Lilly's subconscious; everything was made by her mind, included Lawrence homicide; we can't assume that then, in the real life, everything happened in the same way Lilly dreamed. The only thing we can say for shure is that she solved the case, not because she have precognitive powers, but thanks to her good instinct: she probably noticed something during the investigation, and she fixed it in her subconscious (for example, like myril said, Ryan was the most nervous, and also some sort of covering up from the school staff...). When she was unconscious her mind reprocessed those things, and she found a logic conclusion.
In my opinion this work of her mind is the key to understand what happened to Lawrence.
When you have a problem with too many factors, one of the first things to do is to exclude everything is unnecessary.
The latest person she thought in the last episode was Lawrence: he was necessarily in her mind since the beginning of her dream, but when her subconscious understood he wasn't guilty, she excluded him from her mind "killing" him; you know, an unconscious reasoning like "No, you didn't kill her, but your presence is distracting me, so I hang you".
;D