Miss USA Pageant - Miss California's question

[lillyfan]

OK Quotes still not working for me What am I doing wrong.
Must be smarter than computer.

[eduardodelroice]

Very good post lillyfan!

[Electrophile]

Frankly, ignorance shouldn't be applauded. Thinking gays have no right to marry is ignorant, no matter what formed that opinion. I have no time for the ignorant, so Miss California can go back to her state and live a rich and fulfulling life that I don't need to know about.

[eduardodelroice]

Apr 22, 2009 20:56:32 GMT -5 Electrophile said:

Frankly, ignorance shouldn't be applauded. Thinking gays have no right to marry is ignorant, no matter what formed that opinion. I have no time for the ignorant, so Miss California can go back to her state and live a rich and fulfulling life that I don't need to know about.

I agree with electrophile

[coldboneslove398]

Apr 22, 2009 19:57:35 GMT -5 lillyfan said:

OK Quotes still not working for me What am I doing wrong.
Must be smarter than computer.

Just click the quote button on ali's post and backspace whatever you don't need out of what she originally said or do:

[*quote] and then [/*quote]

without the "*" in the first and second one....the * is just to show what you were doing wrong you had two [/quote] [/quote]

This little thing: /.....is like an ending thing for html code.

[ ] = beginning.

[lillyfan]

Apr 22, 2009 22:50:19 GMT -5 coldboneslove398 said:

Just click the quote button on ali's post and backspace whatever you don't need out of what she originally said or do:

[*quote] and then [/*quote]

without the "*" in the first and second one....the * is just to show what you were doing wrong you had two [/*quote] [/*quote]

This little thing: /.....is like an ending thing for html code.

[ ] = beginning.

Ok I think I got it but I'll keep working on it.
Thanks a lot CBL ;D

[Trublu]

Apr 22, 2009 16:41:02 GMT -5 @eduardodelroice said:

Apr 22, 2009 16:26:51 GMT -5 ali said:

There's a reforming Judaism, and there's a traditional Judaism; but you can talk about Christianity (what? Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Lebfevrian, Calvinist, Anglican...), Islam (Sunni, Shi'a, many other shades), Plytheism, Animism, the religions of American Indians...you can find hundreds of points of view about this matter (or something else)!
But the point is: what is the predominant thought? In Italy is homophobia.

But isn't somethig concernig exclusively religion...

I thought Italy(as most European countries) was liberal like Netherlands or Belgium

I don't know if Italy is homophobic (which would be ironic since same sex relationships were more than accepted in the Roman Empire), but it is the home of Roman Catholicism, and I believe most Italians are Roman Catholic. (Though, technically, The Vatican is it's own state within Italy).

According to Wikipedia (Which of course is not the end all reliable source), the issue is under "political consideration".

Again according to Wikipedia, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is interpreted much differently among different sects, even within Christianity.

[ali]

Apr 22, 2009 16:45:27 GMT -5 Naj said:

Hmmm...my recollection of sodom and gomorrah was that fallen angels came down (fallen meaning the angels came down into earth's gravity) and had sexual relations with families' young women who were offered by their own fathers because they were in fear. I don't recall anything happening that was homosexual. Anyone care to expound upon this further?

In Western culture the myth of Sodoma was the justification to banish homosexuality: the hinabitants of Sodoma, in fact, committed sodomy, which for the medieval Christianity was primarily same-sex sexual activity.
On the Corpus iuris civilis (a collection of laws issued from 529 to 534 by order of Justinian I) homosexuality were condemned using the myth of Sodoma as example.

Apr 22, 2009 20:56:32 GMT -5 Electrophile said:

Frankly, ignorance shouldn't be applauded. Thinking gays have no right to marry is ignorant, no matter what formed that opinion. I have no time for the ignorant, so Miss California can go back to her state and live a rich and fulfulling life that I don't need to know about.

And this is another point: this problem doesn't concern only religions, because, like leni810 and lillyfan say, believers have the faculty to discern what is right or not, what is anachronistic, what is reasonable. But the worst enemy of the free will is ignorance.
And this is something very hard to fight.

Apr 22, 2009 16:41:02 GMT -5 @eduardodelroice said:

I thought Italy(as most European countries) was liberal like Netherlands or Belgium

Apr 23, 2009 11:50:45 GMT -5 Trublu said:

I don't know if Italy is homophobic (which would be ironic since same sex relationships were more than accepted in the Roman Empire), but it is the home of Roman Catholicism, and I believe most Italians are Roman Catholic. (Though, technically, The Vatican is it's own state within Italy).

Italy isn't homophobic: in general Italians don't care what somebody do in his private life or not (eg. here a Lewinsky scandal would be solved with a collective laugh).
The problem is more complicated, and hard to explain: yes, the Vatican is it's own State within Italy, but it is closely related to Italy because of historical reasons (Roman question, Lateran Threaty).
If you consider that in every village there's a church, and that the majority of Italians are Roman Catholics (but, actually, not so many believers), you can understand that Church has got a lot of power on people: that's why politics don't want to have conflicts with Roman Catholic Church.
Some years ago was issued a controversial law about artificial insemination (and Church was favourable): was called a referendum. Pope, bishops and catholic politics did a great campaign to obstruct polls: the referendum failed and the law was approved. Two months ago, after four years, the Constitutional Court estabilished that this law is uncostitutional.
This is only an example how The Vatican can interfere with Italian affairs: so, if the Church say that homosexuality is wrong, year by year, this opinion deviously insinuate in people's minds.

[eduardodelroice]

Thanks for the explanation ali

[myril]

Right, there are different interpretations of the story of Sodom - as of most of the bible texts and stories, you can find different versions of the same story. The part in question particular is about two angels, who had been sent to Lot and he invited them to stay as guests in his house (for their own safety). The men of Sodom gathered and demanded of Lot, to send his two guests out, so they could get "to know" them (different interpretions, what that meant). Lot told the crowd, he couldn't do that, it would violate his hospitality, offering instead his two virgin daughters to please the crowd. The men of Sodom didn't want that and attacked Lot, who got saved by the angels, who blinded the attackers. Story in short version.

Ali already wrote it, the story had been used to give the background and justification to ban mostly homosexuality (but no only).

It is stated in the bible, that marriage is between a man and a woman, derived from the very creation of human beings, Adam and Eve. Of course, in modern interpretation you can focus on others statements, i.e. the message of love. The love though the bible talks about is a trancendent form of love, it has not much to do with the (physical) love or desire between two people we are talking of most of the time. Think people get that often confused.

Not that I care about what the bible has to say.

US America wasn't founded on Christianity though? Hm, what about the Pilgrim Fathers? Thanksgiving? Not saying it was founded as a mere Christian nation, don't get me wrong, but culture and society are strongly influenced by Christian believes and views, and it has played some role in US history and self-image.

What is the buzz though here? Another wannabe celebrity blurring out some stupid phrases. Frankly, I don't think Perez Hilton did gay rights really a favour with his outburst as reaction, not liking the answer to his question (what did he expect?). Probably would have been out of headlines and blog/twitter talk already, if not for some folks crying wolf again, complaining it's another example for liberals, left wings and gays shouting everybody down not talking "pc" (=political correct). Great, more fuel to fire up a renewal of that fraking pc-debate we had in the '80s and '90s.

Does anyone serioulsy expect something smart to be said in a pageant show?

[Naj]

historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists


I never knew that tidbit. However in the scheme of things, mainly the Ten Commandments, I just don't understand the big deal of why it's not acceptable..

Commandment # 7: "You shall not commit adultery".

Commandment # 10: “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”


And with # 10, that means just thinking about wanting someone else's spouse.


I think that heterosexuals who do not accept the right to choose who to be with intimately need to clean up their own act before passing judgment on gay lifestyle. Gay lifestyle isn't even a commandment yet many heterosexuals and/Christians /other beliefs act like it's the worst abomination against God "ever". Gay lifestyle doesn't even register on the "big" list in the scheme of things. Now why is that if it's just the worst thing ever?

Then we have all the failed heterosexual abusive, cheating, loss of love marriages. I guess that's acceptable over being gay.

Again according to Wikipedia, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is interpreted much differently among different sects, even within Christianity.

Belgium permits gay marriage.

I thought Italy(as most European countries) was liberal like Netherlands or Belgium

[quote by ali]In Western culture the myth of Sodoma was the justification to banish homosexuality: the hinabitants of Sodoma, in fact, committed sodomy, which for the medieval Christianity was primarily same-sex sexual activity.
On the Corpus iuris civilis (a collection of laws issued from 529 to 534 by order of Justinian I) homosexuality were condemned using the myth of Sodoma as example.[/quote]

Those are man made laws. Where in the New Testament is this practice unacceptable? What did Jesus teach on this.

[myril]

Apr 23, 2009 16:22:28 GMT -5 Naj said:

[quote by ali]In Western culture the myth of Sodoma was the justification to banish homosexuality: the hinabitants of Sodoma, in fact, committed sodomy, which for the medieval Christianity was primarily same-sex sexual activity.
On the Corpus iuris civilis (a collection of laws issued from 529 to 534 by order of Justinian I) homosexuality were condemned using the myth of Sodoma as example.

Those are man made laws. Where in the New Testament is this practice unacceptable? What did Jesus teach on this.

[/quote]

You can find an interview and discussion (from LGBT point of view) of bible passages here www.whosoever.org/bible/.

Concerning the new Testament: St. Paul said a few things, but there is nothing about it in the reported teachings of Jesus. Probably was not much of an issue for him, neither in a negative sense nor in an accepting/tolerating one.

Homophobia though for sure is not a mere Christian issue.




Just listend again to what Miss California Carrie Prejean said:

I think it's great that Americans are able to choose one or the other. We live in a land that you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage and, you know what, in my country and my family I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anyone out there but that's how I was raised and that's how I think it should be between a man and a woman.

You might have a choice if you want to live in a country, which allows gay marriages or not, though many don't really have that choice.

You do have a choice, if you are pro or contra gay marriages.

But you don't choose, who you fall in love with, though you might make a choice if you allow that feeling or surpress it, if you pursue it or not.

Choice? It's not about choice, it's about human rights.

[coldboneslove398]

My Business Law teacher is always saying this to my class:

Pick the state that best fits your lifestyle. There are 50 states in the US and only 1 state will be perfect for your lifestyle.

[eduardodelroice]

Apr 25, 2009 17:05:31 GMT -5 coldboneslove398 said:

My Business Law teacher is always saying this to my class:

Pick the state that best fits your lifestyle. There are 50 states in the US and only 1 state will be perfect for your lifestyle.

That's good for big federal countries like USA, Australia, Mexico, Brazil & Canada but I live in a country where the same taxes and law across the country... homophobic 100% the whole 9 provinces

[Electrophile]

Apr 25, 2009 17:05:31 GMT -5 coldboneslove398 said:

My Business Law teacher is always saying this to my class:

Pick the state that best fits your lifestyle. There are 50 states in the US and only 1 state will be perfect for your lifestyle.

I don't quite know what you're getting at here, and I'm not sure I like it. Say you're a lesbian couple living in Minnesota, where gay marriage is not legal. You're saying they should pick up and move to a state where it is legal, rather than fight to have it legalized where they already are?

Apologies if that's not the point you're making, but it sure sounds like it to me.

[myril]

A recent example, what the denial of the right to marry does to gays: Lesbian mom saved from deportation by private bill introduced by California Senator Dianne Feinstein

Unfortunately it's not even so easy to allow gay marriages in a few states as long as the DOMA is in place. More about this issue in this article

Marriage includes rights. It's about love and about those rights. Several rights are denied to some people, just because they fall in love with the "wrong" other and want to share their lives, want to be with them in good times as in bad times.

So tell me, what is there to choose?

[eduardodelroice]

Apr 26, 2009 3:56:59 GMT -5 myril said:

A recent example, what the denial of the right to marry does to gays: Lesbian mom saved from deportation by private bill introduced by California Senator Dianne Feinstein

Unfortunately it's not even so easy to allow gay marriages in a few states as long as the DOMA is in place. More about this issue in this article

Marriage includes rights. It's about love and about those rights. Several rights are denied to some people, just because they fall in love with the "wrong" other and want to share their lives, want to be with them in good times as in bad times.

So tell me, what is there to choose?

Very good post Myril

[coldboneslove398]

Apr 25, 2009 22:22:36 GMT -5 Electrophile said:

Apr 25, 2009 17:05:31 GMT -5 coldboneslove398 said:

My Business Law teacher is always saying this to my class:

Pick the state that best fits your lifestyle. There are 50 states in the US and only 1 state will be perfect for your lifestyle.

I don't quite know what you're getting at here, and I'm not sure I like it. Say you're a lesbian couple living in Minnesota, where gay marriage is not legal. You're saying they should pick up and move to a state where it is legal, rather than fight to have it legalized where they already are?

Apologies if that's not the point you're making, but it sure sounds like it to me.

I wasn't making any point ;D

Just stating something my Business Law teacher always say to us. And yes, he does say that most people live in states that they're unhappy in simply because that's where work is.

[Naj]

Apr 26, 2009 3:56:59 GMT -5 myril said:

A recent example, what the denial of the right to marry does to gays: Lesbian mom saved from deportation by private bill introduced by California Senator Dianne Feinstein

Unfortunately it's not even so easy to allow gay marriages in a few states as long as the DOMA is in place. More about this issue in this article

Marriage includes rights. It's about love and about those rights. Several rights are denied to some people, just because they fall in love with the "wrong" other and want to share their lives, want to be with them in good times as in bad times.

So tell me, what is there to choose?

That's interesting that Feinstein wrote a special bill which could mean others could do so in other states. (granted it was only to one circumstance) Doesn't that usually lead to something more permanent in favor of the citizens. I'd like to think so.

[Trublu]

Apr 23, 2009 16:09:54 GMT -5 myril said:

US America wasn't founded on Christianity though? Hm, what about the Pilgrim Fathers? Thanksgiving? Not saying it was founded as a mere Christian nation, don't get me wrong, but culture and society are strongly influenced by Christian believes and views, and it has played some role in US history and self-image.

I don't know that we meant to debate that point, but the America of today is supposed to be tolerant of all religions that don't harm people, and there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. If homophobic sects of Christianity are allowed to dictate law, then we've lost something here.

Apr 23, 2009 16:09:54 GMT -5 myril said:

What is the buzz though here? Another wannabe celebrity blurring out some stupid phrases. Frankly, I don't think Perez Hilton did gay rights really a favour with his outburst as reaction, not liking the answer to his question (what did he expect?). Probably would have been out of headlines and blog/twitter talk already, if not for some folks crying wolf again, complaining it's another example for liberals, left wings and gays shouting everybody down not talking "pc" (=political correct). Great, more fuel to fire up a renewal of that fraking pc-debate we had in the '80s and '90s.

Does anyone serioulsy expect something smart to be said in a pageant show?

His outburst? Probably a bit much. But I don't think this is about being PC; I hate when people get too PC. It doesn't help anything. But Miss California was not being non PC here, she was being homophobic. Saying that in her country she doesn't want same sex marriage is just outright homophobic, never mind any PC nonsense.

And also, I don't agree with your last statement. My cousin was a Teen Miss in our state, and she used her platform to get a lot accomplished in terms of community, something that I'm sure the majority of Miss and Teen Misses in their respective states do. If something good comes out of it, then why knock it? Beats just having a walking of the most beautiful people in the country.