|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on May 11, 2008 21:49:57 GMT -5
Here's my take on this one
Scotty- I have always loved you
Lilly- (thinking) Should I tell him that I'm pregnant.
Btw- I've updated Aftermath: Coming together and Coming to Terms also
|
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 11, 2008 22:35:19 GMT -5
Ok I’m back! Sorry for the delay, was off to my mum’s for Mother’s Day. She just doesn’t understand how important Lilly and Scotty are! So I can’t quote everything or else I’d reach the post limit so I hope this will suffice. Just for the record, I hate the word cliche but say it a least a billion times in this post. I hope you'll forgive me. The meaning of my previous post fell flat but it definitely isn't anyone’s fault; please bear with me, as I'm not great at expressing what is in my head. I'm not even convinced I've done it this time. I'm not suggesting that simply because everything else is a cliché, why does this one matter, I'm saying that the cliché doesn't need to exist in the first place. As we are all pretty much in agreeance, all the other clichés are so well-ingrained in the characters that it doesn’t affect respect we have for the show enough to be detrimental to whether they are credible or not. Well, same goes for the ‘getting together’ part. I would agree that it would turn to cliché if they decided to wait until the final episode; have them kiss and then ride happily off into the sunset together. Here is where I would gladly insert Mr. Pukey. I don’t want that to happen. But I also know that it wouldn’t happen that way. I have the utmost faith in the writing staff that they would do it in such a way as to avoid falling into a trap causing you as the non-shipper to twitch violently. If they were to have them get together during the progress of the show and have them work through a realistic, genuinely complex and challenging relationship where everything isn’t happy-go-lucky (talkin' about cliche's may as well throw some one liners in  ) all the time it would then in turn become its own defiance of the typical cliché. Real life is messy and so far CC has been able to take those notions and deal with them head on. (In fact, recently discovering that Scotty is just now finding closure to Elisa’s death is a perfect example of that. Nothing is cut and dry in life and it was commendable to see them acknowledge that yet again by having him still struggling to accept her death.) I see no difference for an L&S relationship. Firstly, the very fact that we are even DISCUSSING this and the very fact that we label ourselves as shipper/non-shipper for L&S implies that the idea of will-they/won't-they HAS been introduced already. The instant they were put together as a male/female partnership, it became as such. I actually don’t believe it’s avoidable – likely something to do with what the Networks will accept as a premise for a show. They know that relationships are a pull so they probably almost make it a requirement for a series. But be it pressure or not, the characters (coupled with the excellent acting abilities of Danny Pino and Kathryn Morris) have taken the idea and made it into something special. (I almost would say that the writer’s owe it to their characters to develop what’s emerged over the years.) So, the willthey/won'tthey can't be just through "shipper" interpretation otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to defend your position or claim yourself a non-shipper at all. No, what I was saying there (or at least trying to say  ) was that pretty much anything can be considered a cliché if done poorly. You wouldn't notice it as a cliche if done in a solid, believable fashion. Having them NOT get together could even become a cliché in the sense that “oh well, of course they can’t because it’s expected”- but I wanted to know why it is THIS particular point that makes it travel to "unthinkable" territory where you find it to be "beyond repair"? But you've basically answered my question; you're simply unsure of what makes it stand out as "the ultimate" and therefore we can never truly come to any kind of closure on that topic. As cellogal stated so simply and purely. It all comes down to how they handle it. I don’t see it as being a show-breaking "cliché", you do. And never the twain shall meet. Ok, yes, they were just initial examples so let’s move into more of the clichés that are in development that will come to fruition by the end of the series. What happens at the end of the show if Lilly does end up dealing with her demons? What happens if she doesn’t? Both endings could be considered a cliché. (optionA: if she does deal with her demons, it's that she had to be saved so that it would offer hope to the viewer cliche; OptionB: if she doesn't deal; it becomes the lone wolf cop cliche, only good when they are troubled.)Damned if you, damned if you don’t. But the way the writer’s have taken us through her mind, (what little we get to see of it), plus KM's acting out of these scenes, they in turn make the 'cliché' something unique to Lilly and only Lilly; thus becoming their own and prevent falling into the been done before category (to some extent at least). One final thing, I have a hypothetical situation for you; Let's say Lilly and Scotty don't get together, how do you see their characters lives unfolding in the future? Do they get married to other people? Do they stay single forever? Or do you just not think beyond where the show is likely to end? For argument’s sake let’s pretend Scotty were eventually marrying someone other than Lilly. How could he possibly make that work? We’ve agreed that he and Lilly have that incredibly strong bond/connection/understanding so tell me … how can he be that close to someone and have gone through that much with her and get each other so completely that he could then turn around and have all those things with a supposed “love of his life” spouse too. (I was trying to picture if Elisa had lived what would have happened since I believe that was his first and only love pre-Lilly but I realized that you can't separate that fact of the story because it was through the events of his life -including Elisa and Elisa's death - that brought him to the person who has fallen for Lilly now) Anyway, I suppose it’s just my suffocatingly elevated view of love and what love should be between two people vowing to spend the rest of their lives together but I don't think finding that 'something' with someone (as I believe Lilly and Scotty have) comes along that often. I know I, for one, haven't found it. And personally, I wouldn’t be happy knowing that my husband was THAT involved emotionally with another person, nevermind another WOMAN and still claim that he wants to be with me and only me... forever. I mean, I’m not the jealous type but that would bother the kajeebee’s out of me. And I’m sorry but I have to ask… would we be having these same debates if it were a different pairing on the show? Yeahhh…I don’t really think so. And now I hope to never utter the word cliche ever again. |
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 11, 2008 22:36:53 GMT -5
Lilly: Seriously, does this show NEVER let you take your shirt off? We're IN BED, and you're WEARING a SHIRT. What's up with that? Scotty: I dunno, but I gotta go talk to them. This ain't gonna work long-term. LOL! I would try to rectify that little detail for you cellogal but...sorry... Scotty with no shirt is too cliche (augh dammit! had to say it again!) |
|
cellogal
Veteran Detective
Recap Expert[/color]
Don't worry. I'll be polite.
Posts: 710
|
Post by cellogal on May 11, 2008 22:54:05 GMT -5
Blasphemy!
|
|
|
|
Post by yankee1151 on May 11, 2008 23:48:17 GMT -5
And this is precisely what makes it the ULTIMATE cliche, thanks for articulating it for me! The fact that as you say, people wondered "will they or won't they" FROM THE BEGINNING, simply BECAUSE they were a male/female partnership, is a big part of why they shouldn't go there. Because to some, it's inevitable, regardless if it makes sense, just because hey! they're partners! they're attractive! YADA YADA YAWN. Now, I'm not saying that their relationship hasn't evolved to a point where it COULD be believable for these characters, nor am I saying that you personally ship them for superficial/hollywood cliche reasons; clearly, that's not the case - but again, I don't see what you see in terms of it being inevitable that their relationship evolve to a romantic level. Hypothetically, if you take out the tv/cliche factor - if these two people were real, I'd have a very easy time believing that a relationship between them would not only never work, but never get started in the first place. (Holy run-on sentence, batman!) I really think that's where we disagree the most. You feel it would be completely unbelievable if they don't get together. I think their relationship as it is now makes perfect sense. Let's explore this further, shall we? For one thing, it's VERY sticky to get involved with someone you work with, and I just don't see Lilly, who's job is literally her whole life, EVER crossing that line. We've discussed the Christina issue ad nauseum, but I still think that would be a big roadblock for Lil, too. Scotty may not be fully over Elisa. Lilly has more issues than National Geographic at present time with little to no progress being made, could she really give enough to make a relationship work for real now? I've been there, and believe me, the answer is NO. And again, all of these "reasons" are completely moot if they are not romantically interested in each other. IMO, Scotty MAY BE, Lilly is not. The thing is, if I saw what you see (that they totally love each other and the getting together is just a formality at this point, please correct me if I'm wrong) then I'd say, yeah, to hell with the cliche. I don't see them that way, though. Simple as that. As for their futures, yeah, I hadn't given that much thought, to be honest. For Lilly, I think it all depends on if/when/how she deals with her issues (or doesn't). Like I said, no way she can be fully "there" in a relationship now, so whether or not she ends up happy is way up in the air. The way the writers seem to be going with her character , I'd guess she ends up alone. Scotty is a tougher one. He has issues too, but I think time and acceptance are the key WRT to Elisa, and I think he's working on it the best he can. We've not really seen how he is in a relationship, truly. Elisa was sick, that dominated everything. Christina was a con artist, it wasn't real. And even when he thought it might be, the Elisa thing was way too fresh for him to be all "there" in that dealio. ADAwhatever was clearly a fling. So it's really hard to say what I think would become of Scotty WRT love or lack thereof. As for their hypothetical significant others being jealous - I don't know. Yeah, we see that they have a connection, and a strong friendship - but Lilly and Scotty have yet to acknowledge that, themselves, even. They don't even hang out as friends, outside of First Thursdays! If I trusted my significant other (and I would not be in a serious relationship with someone I did not trust, so) I would not be jealous of their co-worker. Which is, technically ALL they are right now, regardless of what the viewers think they should be. And let's say they did really become good friends and act like it - great. Unless they were cheating, sneaking off together, lying, what have you - what's to be jealous of? I get that "cheating" can be non-sexual, too - but again it all comes down to how you see L/S. If you see more than friends, then sure, you'd think "how can they be with anyone else, and how can the 'anyone else' be ok with it?" If you see friends/co-workers, then of course they can have a perfectly healthy relationship outside of that, without compromising either. Probably not, but that just goes back to the cliche thing... why would people ship anyone with Vera or Jeffries or Stillman? They're not conventionally attractive by Hollywood standards. Kat could be part of a potential ship, but with whom? Vera has been floated, but again, he's (gasp) overweight so in a lot of people's minds it wouldn't fly, sad but true. No one cares that he's with an attractive person on the show - as long as it's a secondary character that no one gives a crap about. That's Hollywood, folks!! Also, they have simply not flushed the characters of Miller, Vera, Jeffries, and Stillman out to the point that many fans know enough about them to know what kind of person would be suitable for them. As mentioned, I've heard Kat/Vera floated as a ship, why? Because they snip at each other, and it's funny!! Ha, ha. Gotta give me more than that to invest in a 'ship. |
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 11, 2008 23:49:36 GMT -5
heehee, you know what? I'll see what I can do  boxman's gonna looooooove this one |
|
|
|
Post by yankee1151 on May 11, 2008 23:54:41 GMT -5
PS - I hope that last post did not come across as snippy. I'm too tired to make proper use of the smileys right now, so I hope you don't sense a "tone" where none was intended.
|
|
|
|
Post by yankee1151 on May 11, 2008 23:59:31 GMT -5
heehee, you know what? I'll see what I can do Oh, for the love of God please don't put Pino's head on Brad Pitt's body or some sh**!! |
|
Collider
Loyal to Look Again
CC Socialite[/color]
Heretic Pride
Posts: 458
|
Post by Collider on May 12, 2008 1:16:29 GMT -5
Apologies if I end up contradicting Yankee a little, here; I only really have time to churn out one metaphysical shipperpost right at this moment and cross-referencing is difficult. As we are all pretty much in agreeance, all the other clichés are so well-ingrained in the characters that it doesn’t affect respect we have for the show enough to be detrimental to whether they are credible or not. Well, same goes for the ‘getting together’ part. Again, gotta disagree. For me, the 'getting together' part just transcends that level of well-written cliche (a la Lilly Rush, and I've already touched on that being a sore spot for me WRT the character, so I won't pursue that) and falls into a level of "must get the two hot protagonists together!"... and the show IS better than that. With cliche, as with all things, IMHO, there is a cut-off point. This, IMHO, would go so far beyond it, it's not even funny. Firstly, the very fact that we are even DISCUSSING this and the very fact that we label ourselves as shipper/non-shipper for L&S implies that the idea of will-they/won't-they HAS been introduced already. Again. IDEA. Not fact. And an idea, by its very definition, is within one's own mind. I'll touch on the reasons why people fixate on this particular pairing a little below... The instant they were put together as a male/female partnership, it became as such. I actually don’t believe it’s avoidable – likely something to do with what the Networks will accept as a premise for a show. They know that relationships are a pull so they probably almost make it a requirement for a series. Hell, I'll be the first to agree with that. But presenting implicit subtext (or an 'idea') as a pull is not the same as making it overtly and explicitly a relationship waiting to be happen. And, as I've said, there are friendships out there that explore exactly the same depth of emotion and 'soulmatery' as Lilly and Scotty, and who wouldn't ever dream of getting 'together' in a million years. Not denying that they have something special... but any idea of it being more than that is just that, an idea. And, to reiterate, in being such it's once again just a concept floated through people's minds, and not on the page in any tangible way. So, the willthey/won'tthey can't be just through "shipper" interpretation otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to defend your position or claim yourself a non-shipper at all. Sorry, but no. Shipper Wars, especially of the non-canon variety, happen all the time, throughout every fandom under the sun. And the vast majority of the pairings warred over exist solely through shipper (or non-shipper) interpretation. Why do you think so many people slash Batman/Robin or Xavier/Magneto? Ok, yes, they were just initial examples so let’s move into more of the clichés that are in development that will come to fruition by the end of the series. What happens at the end of the show if Lilly does end up dealing with her demons? What happens if she doesn’t? Both endings could be considered a cliché. Again, though, Lilly as an individual and a protagonist IS already a cliche. If you're a cliche from the start, might as well go out the same way. Doesn't mean you should bring other, more well-developed characters down with you. One final thing, I have a hypothetical situation for you; Let's say Lilly and Scotty don't get together, how do you see their characters lives unfolding in the future? Do they get married to other people? Do they stay single forever? Or do you just not think beyond where the show is likely to end? I will be honest, here. For me, this absolutely depends on how they do end it. I myself have trouble enough writing mid-season fic in case it messes with future developments for that season... so I can't really look to a future beyond an ending that hasn't happened yet, 'cause I personally hate trying to determine a future for something until it's wrapped and complete and there can be no more canon introduced. I'm a weird completist that way. For argument’s sake let’s pretend Scotty were eventually marrying someone other than Lilly. How could he possibly make that work? We’ve agreed that he and Lilly have that incredibly strong bond/connection/understanding so tell me … how can he be that close to someone and have gone through that much with her and get each other so completely that he could then turn around and have all those things with a supposed “love of his life” spouse too. Why not?? Like I said above, friendships that deep absolutely do exist. And, if Lilly were male, would we be having this conversation?? (actually, given the batman/robin analogy I quoted above, quite probably). But what I'm getting at is... if Lilly were male, or Scotty were female, I would see their relationship in exactly the same way as I see it now. The same depth, the same soul-deep bond... the exact same relationship. Fact is, as I already said, emotional connections that strong DO exist in a purely platonic sense, and I can absolutely see Lilly as a guest at Scotty's wedding, utterly joyous at the fact that her boy has found someone who makes him happy. Maybe a little bitter 'cause she's not found someone herself yet... but in terms of her feelings for HIM? Absolutely, she'd be happy for him. Truly, genuinely, and blissfully happy. And absolutely it is possible to have that depth of bond with two different people in two completely different ways. If it wasn't, there are a lot of high-emotion jobs out there where everyone would end up marrying their professional partners simply on the strength of what they've been through together. And I’m sorry but I have to ask… would we be having these same debates if it were a different pairing on the show? Yeahhh…I don’t really think so. On this show? No, because it's essentially the Lilly Rush show, with ensemble, and 98% or more of fan interest in the show revolves around direct interest in Lilly Rush (I exclude interest in the cases as motivation, here, 'cause we're talking about characters). On another show, with another Attractive Main Character who has a lot of scenes with a particularly attractive co-worker? Absolutely, we would be having these debates. Because the fundamental point of this, and the billion other similar ships throughout fandom, is that it's about your MAIN character. The supporting cast is always gonna be secondary in importance to your pretty main character and her pretty pretty partner with whom she is always going to be shipped. It's all about the protagonist, in any fandom... and, when your protagonist is in partnership with another character, especially one of the opposite sex (and especially when both are theoretically attractive), however they deal with that relationship in canon, there will always be shippers pairing them together. Because that is what fans do with their main characters, and all the more so when said main characters are 'partnered up'. It's just the way of the fandomic world. And now I hope to never utter the word cliche ever again. I applaud your capacity for writing it that many times without it losing all meaning. |
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 12, 2008 1:55:13 GMT -5
Ah yankee! I love you but I can't type anymore! This debate is taking over my life! LOL No seriously, it's interesting to see the different views but I'm literally shaking with everything I want to say in response and I just can't right now... ..............ohhhhh... okay maybe a little: ;D ( eta: or a lot!) No but see though that doesn't really say anything because what about those other "from the beginning cliches" that are laced throughout the show (ie Lilly's character and her eventual dealing or non-dealing with her issues) Something will have to happen there one way or the other as well (as it will for L&S' relationship). So saying that it is the 'ultimate' can only be a non-shipper interpretation because you simply don't want it to happen. I would say the Lilly character herself, with her baggage of all colors and sizes, is a far more extensively discussed topic (she says as she writes her 18th post about L&S in one day) and larger part of the show as a whole than L&S' willthey/won'tthey scenario. You're pretty much bang-on with that sentence! I most definitely think a real life Lilly and Scotty would at least contemplate the 'what if we...' factor but whether it actually would 'work out' or not... I really don't know. But human nature would certainly take them there in my mind. Yes but now we're back to TV. Remember, this is a fictional story about two people in a very complex relationship. Fiction has a beginning, middle leading to climax, and ending. I think as it stands now we will be entering the climax of the plot by next year and then depending on how long the show remains on the air will dissolve to the ending a year or so after that. There has to be some kind of account for the scenes we have seen between them. Granted we both have interpreted the scenes in different ways but there MUST be some result emanating from everything we've been shown; whether it turns out to be a shippy result or a non-shippy result is beside the point and one which we will just have to wait to find out but I definitely think they have to [and will] create some kind of closure for us some time. Ok I don't even want to touch that last sentence since I think we both know where each of us stand there lol but as to the other things you mentioned; True, it would be sticky being that they work together, BUT that there itself is what makes this particular couple such an interesting and powerful story about love stemming from an unlikely, unplanned and perhaps unwanted place but that they ultimately cannot ignore or deny. As well, I would admire tptb for attempting something that is messy because it's another way of kicking back to reality. It's not always nice and happy love-at-first sight like it is depicted in all those formulaic romantic comedy crap movies and chicklit books. It can be complicated, confusing and most definitely depressing at times as they were to work through the issues they have but in the end I believe it would be worth it for each of them. As I said before, this part of it may have something (or a lot I'm not sure) to do with my personal opinions about love and how I don't believe there is anything more important than finding and holding onto that thing which rarely happens but personally I don't believe that work should interfere with that more important aspect of life. I do however think Lilly would have problems with it....at least at first she would. No doubt she would likely freak right out and want to run but then we have to look back at what her feelings are about ending up alone. She said in an episode title that is escaping me as it is almost 3am, that, she doesn't want to end up like her mother; she doesn't want to have tiffed away any chances for happiness; she doesn't want to die alone; SO would she be able to face that something coming from someone even if that someone is Scotty after all is said and done? It remains to be seen but I think she could if she were to actually take the time to think about it and what it would be like to have that element with him compared to what her life is like now (empty) without it. As for Christina, yeah, I think she'd come up. No way she couldn't at this point since it was such a huge deal for Lilly at the time but I don't think it would be enough to seal the coffin shut (note to self: enough with the cliche's already) for an L&S relationship. Plus, I think Lilly would be more understanding now knowing how distraught he was after Elisa, to accept why he did it in the first place. As to Lilly being able to 'give enough' to be in a relationship. Well that's the part where having someone like Scotty just makes it so much more important and believable. He's her friend first so he understands her, knows her tendencies and knows how important different things are to her. And not only does he know about them, he accepts them and, yes, loves her for them. I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard work to make this relationship happen (as all relationships are!) and I'm positive they would undergo emotional strains and struggles to end up on the better side of 'okay' but I still believe that despite all that, they would get there eventually. Together. So, you seriously don't think that Hypothetical-Scotty's-future-wife would have any problem whatsoever with her fiance sharing this deeply emotional bond... with a woman.... who looks like Lilly....? Even if you do just see them as friends/coworkers/whatever, I'm sorry but there would be a helluvalot of understanding that would have to come from the bride-to-be in that situation. Please forgive me if none of the preceding made sense to anyone but myself. I'm on my fourth cup of coffee at 3 in the morning. Anyone know of a good therapist? Mine just isn't cuttin' it. |
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 12, 2008 2:55:47 GMT -5
Ack, Collider! It's 3:30 for me here so I apologize for making this short. (and for the typos that are bound to happen now ) It just seems that our cut-off points come at different times. I don't think it would need to change the show all that much, if handled properly (as it would be!), you along with other non-shippers believe it to be the absolute worst thing that could happen. How is that not fact? As soon as a male/female friendship/partnership makes it through one episode without falling into bed together, willthey/won'tthey is born. Not idea. Fact. You said it yourself that fans automatically start pairing up two lead characters (especially m/f) for every show in the history of time so the willthey/wontthey becomes synonymous with that. And even if it were through fan ideas/interpretation only, you can't negate fan-interpretations because we are what take that notion and create it into the fire that turns the crank. After having been through the entire Mulder/Scully will-they/won'tthey phenomenon, I can attest that fans DO have say in what happens and how much buzz is created around a topic simply by doing what we're doing here and discussing it til all hours in the morning. lol. This part I do agree with. The shippers interpret the scenes differently than the non-shippers so what is a relationship-in-waiting for me, is apparently more honest-friendship-in-waiting for you. *shrug* And so it is. Well not entirely 'intangible'. What about those one-liners that you have admitted the writer's include just for the shippers? They are tangible. They are there plainly for all to hear so while I agree looks and feelings are inferred entirely by the shipper, the individual lines and suggestions presented by those words are in fact very real. Perhaps it is because I'm now on my 5th cup of coffee at 3:43 in the morning but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I agree whole-heartedly that there are shippers for every fandom. Heck, I've been a shipper for a few fandoms myself. What I meant to say, if it didn't come off clearly (entirely possible) is that the fact that people come specifically to post their opinions on whether a relationship should or shouldn't happen means that willthey/wontthey is alive and well for EVERY fan. Not just the shipper. Perhaps we may need to agree to disagree on that point.. haha. Yeah perhaps you're right for the most part in a real-life situation but the way L&S is depicted, as it happens to be fiction, there IS that extra little something that comes through in all their scenes, imo. I know you, as non-shippers, do not see it but the fact that there are more than one of us that do lets me know that I'm not completely delusional. (as there are more than one of you who do not see it as well, just the way certain minds work). And funny you should say about the partners ending up marrying each other. I seriously know two cops that did just that. I swear to you, on my love for Danny Pino shirtless, I'm not making this up. They met on the force, were partners first and got married 2 years ago. So I'm sure every now and again there are others who have considered possible feelings for who they work with during these highly-emotional jobs. And, I think I'll go pass out now.  |
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 12, 2008 3:01:31 GMT -5
Oh, for the love of God please don't put Pino's head on Brad Pitt's body or some sh**!! Haha. No need my friend. I'm just going to say one small word: "Flicka" And there it is ;D |
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on May 12, 2008 8:31:15 GMT -5
LSR- Did you have to mention that Movie , just kidding. Anyways I think Scotty should act on what he feels truely about Lilly. If he really loves her he should tell her exactly that, I think Lilly already knows he does but she needs to hear that from him.  |
|
|
|
Post by yankee1151 on May 12, 2008 11:26:38 GMT -5
Ah, but they don't have to do anything about it. The way things stand right now, it's very possible that everything we see "hanging in the air" WRT Lilly will not be resolved. I'm shocked that they even re-visited the Elisa issue with Scotty, you know how they like to sweep these things under the rug. It's very possible that in the writers' minds, Lilly got some sort of closure with "The Road" and since then, poof, no mention of her nightmares, etc. Yeah, clearly she still has problems, a blind person can see that. But whether anything will be addressed/resolved remains to be seen. It's very possible that they're just gonna move along, have Lil get with Eddie, and when that relationship inevitably ends, a few lines will be devoted to the fact that she just can't hold onto a man or some sh*t, whatever. So while we agree that Lilly's issues should be addressed and dealt with, there is certainly no guarantee that they actually will. You also see unresolved stuff that has to be addressed WRT their relationship, I'm not so sure I do - and I don't think the writers do, either. Again, what we want to see (whether it be a "friendly" talk or more) is not necessarily going to happen.
We don't need to rehash this, suffice it to say we can agree to disagree. I don't think Lilly would cross that line, period, even if she wanted to (and I don't think she does anyway). Hell, I'm not entirely sure Scotty wants to, even if his feelings for Lil are deeper/more complex than hers for him. I'm just not convinced they're these soulmates you believe them to be, and even if they were, life doesn't always work that way. Love isn't always enough - it wouldn't just be messy, it would be a trainwreck sifting through all the potential roadblocks. Can you really see the two of them coming out of all that in a happy, stable, long term relationship, with both of their careers firmly in tact? I can't.
Not if she's secure in her relationship, and a lot of that depends on Scotty. See, the problem is, you think that he won't be able to be fully "available" in a relationship with someone else because of his (alleged) feelings for Lil. Yeah, hypothetical future wife would and should be jealous if Lilly is standing in her way of a happy marriage with Scotty, but I don't see that. I think if he (or she for that matter) ends up marrying someone, their friendship with each other will not have a thing to do with it. And yes, friends can have deep emotional bonds that do not prevent them from having lives and loves outside of that. Like I said, they don't even hang out as friends. They don't confide in each other. If that changes, all that means (to me) is that they have acknowledged and embraced their friendship. I don't see how that has to affect either one of their romantic lives in the slightest. Straight guys and girls can be good friends without there being anything else to it. I mean, I was married (not legally, but that's the government's fault - but I digress) and my best friend (for almost 20 years) is a guy that not only do I have a "deep connection" with, but I actually used to hook up with. My ex-wife had no problems with that and in fact became somewhat close with him herself. And in my case, the ex would have had to worry about guys AND girls if she was gonna have jealousy issues with my friends, lol. I see it as a non-issue - but I think once again, the reason we don't agree is that you think Scotty could not possibly love anyone the way he loves Lil, therefore making it impossible for his hypothetical future wife to be treated fairly. That's really a whole different discussion, one that we don't need to have (again) because we KNOW we don't agree, lol. But if it's just the fact that they are close friends/partners - I say again, why should that have any bearing on their outside romantic interests? Also, the "looks like Lilly" part? Are you saying that if she were ugly, hypothetical wife would have nothing to worry about despite this deep connection you see getting in the way? Because that would truly be her own insecurities. And yet ANOTHER discussion altogether. LOL.
Dead horse, she is BEAT!!
|
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 12, 2008 12:45:03 GMT -5
LOL ok I think this will likely be my final post for this debate. As interesting as it is, we could end up going on forever with this as we simply do not see things the same way. Nothing wrong with that and I appreciate your views but we shall never see eye to eye on certain matters. Anyway, it was fun, yankee, despite the large circles that now sit below my eyes so thanks! Ah, but they don't have to do anything about it. The way things stand right now, it's very possible that everything we see "hanging in the air" WRT Lilly will not be resolved. I'm shocked that they even re-visited the Elisa issue with Scotty, you know how they like to sweep these things under the rug. It's very possible that in the writers' minds, Lilly got some sort of closure with "The Road" and since then, poof, no mention of her nightmares, etc. Yeah, clearly she still has problems, a blind person can see that. But whether anything will be addressed/resolved remains to be seen. It's very possible that they're just gonna move along, have Lil get with Eddie, and when that relationship inevitably ends, a few lines will be devoted to the fact that she just can't hold onto a man or some sh*t, whatever. So while we agree that Lilly's issues should be addressed and dealt with, there is certainly no guarantee that they actually will. You also see unresolved stuff that has to be addressed WRT their relationship, I'm not so sure I do - and I don't think the writers do, either. Again, what we want to see (whether it be a "friendly" talk or more) is not necessarily going to happen. Ok they don't have to do anything with the story but we disagree on whether they will or not. To me, seeing that it is still being picked up for more seasons to come and that we have been privy to concerned looks from coworkers regarding Lilly's well-being and such, means they are not going to leave the Lilly story hanging completely. I'm also looking at this from a "television show" point of view where it IS a fictional story and many of the fans would be disappointed if they weren't to flesh out to some extent the emotional scars that have been presented in Lilly. You're putting words in my mouth. lol. For starters, I don't believe they are "soulmates" in the naive sense of the term, I believe they are two people who have been through so much together and have come to trust and respect each other so fully that a natural, incredibly strong love has developed over time. And while I don't necessarily see "marriage" and "babies" for them, I also don't see how something couldn't happen if things were to continue to build as I see them building now. Personally, I don't think the show will even attempt to explain 'long-term' anything for ANY of the characters but I do think that there are a few pages left in the book to show us some kind of growth/development in certain stories (shippy or not for L&S) before giving us an inkling for what state of mind the characters are in by the end of the series so that we can then take it upon ourselves (along with the help of cellogal fanfiction) to create what will happen for them. You're absolutely right. That is the problem. I don't think Scotty would be 'available' to be in a relationship with someone as it stands now. And because I do think he has feelings for Lilly, I don't think he will be able to move past that (if it didn't work out for them) until he fleshes it out with her one on one at some point. "That you actually used to hook up with." So, while I agree that straight guys and girls can just be friends (as you are now), the element of something more was there at some point right? Otherwise you wouldn't have slept with him in the first place (unless it was some kind of a one-night stand but still, the idea had to have been presented because it happened). btw, yankee I certainly don't expect you to divulge your entire personal history here, I'm just making a point. LOL No, because I believe love is love no matter what. It certainly wouldn't matter to me if I loved someone with all my heart what they looked like (but then again that can even be argued because sexual attraction is part of what draws you to someone else, so what is attractive to me may not be to someone else therefore making the point moot) But you said it yourself with your Vera example, whether we like to admit it or not there is an element in the world of this preconceived notion of 'hollywood model-like' beauty that people feel threatened by. So given that Lilly is blonde, thin, beautiful and physically available (although not necessarily emotionally as yet but that's besides the point) hypothetical wife in my opinion would feel a pang of jealousy, if only at first glance. You are right though that if the trust was there between her and Scotty, it would become a non-issue. Problem is, because I believe what I believe about Scotty's feelings for Lilly, there would be cause for a trust issue underlying the relationship.  Ok, yeah, I'm out... lol.. |
|
cellogal
Veteran Detective
Recap Expert[/color]
Don't worry. I'll be polite.
Posts: 710
|
Post by cellogal on May 12, 2008 12:55:08 GMT -5
I have nothing intelligent to contribute. I'm busy plumbing the depths of Lilly Rush Angst for chapter 33. But I wanted to say that this entire debate has been fascinating, and the dead horse smiley made me giggle.
|
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on May 12, 2008 13:30:24 GMT -5
I've already started work on the 44th and 24th chapter of coming to terms. Planning to make this one full of comedy, and already am making a newer story that goes inside of Scotty's mind, about his love for Lilly
|
|
|
|
Post by yankee1151 on May 12, 2008 18:04:47 GMT -5
Dude I just wrote a whole long (probably incoherent, but still) post, and it got eaten.
Believe me, I want them to address it too. Maybe I just don't have the faith in the writers that you have. I'm just not sure.
LOL, ok, without divulging my entire personal history, I just used that example because the guy happens to be my closest friend. The fact that we used to hook up (no, not a one night stand, but not dating either) would have just added fuel to the fire if there were any jealousy issues present. There weren't because my ex-wife knew the guy and I were/are JUST FRIENDS, despite the "closeness." My friendship with him did not cause me to be less emotionally available within my relationship. I'm just saying - my point is that yes, a man and a woman can JUST BE FRIENDS, lol. It seems that you're saying that they can't be, without at least exploring the possibility of something more. I have/have had plenty of platonic straight male friendships, and never, ever would have thought about taking them further - even when I actually, you know, dated men, lol. Are you really saying guys and girls can't be friends without there being some sort of undertone there? Or that their significant others SHOULD be jealous of such a friendship? Because I get it WRT S/L - because you think they love each other and it would actually INTERFERE with outside relationships. But your last post made it seem as if you feel that way WRT all platonic m/f situations.
ETA: Or, are you just saying that men & women can't just be friends in "TV Land?" Because that would make more sense, though I still disagree.
OK I'M DONE. LOL. Loved the dead horse smiley, by the way. Will not quote it as I'm sure it will be a big honking shipper sign the next time I log on.
And now back to your regularly scheduled shipping. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on May 12, 2008 19:28:52 GMT -5
I don't just see Lilly and Scotty just as friends, they are more than that. The problem is they can't seem to admit what their hearts really want, but the real aspect is that neither of them can stay committed to a relationship. Somehow in this show I can just see them starting to form a good one but that will take a lot of work, both of them need to open up. Scotty especially needs not to be so afraid of Lilly's reaction, knowing they are both adults that have been single for way too long.
They don't know what a real romance is because they shut themselves off from having a type of real one. Scotty has feelings for her but needs to understand if he doesn't quite possibly it might help, what they need is a relationship that is slow and steady not jumping into things so face.
Perhaps a night where they watch a game together or just sit there talking on the couch. Lilly quills up like a porcupine too fast if she is being rushed into anything, they need time to see if this is going to work out without going onto the next level so quickly. Let's say it doesn't iot makes remaining friends fine without the oddness, but neither of them don't know too much about who they really are outside of work.
What kind of interests do they have if any, they don't really talk about normal things. They need to establish a form of communication that doesn't revolved around work. It's hard since the two are so obbessed with their jobs neither one of them really has to time realize how much their social life is lagging.
Repeating a famous X-files quote" The best relationships coming from friendships" Lilly and Scotty need to build up their friendship somemore before getting together.
|
|
|
|
Post by lsr on May 12, 2008 20:00:15 GMT -5
LMAO! Ok this is my last...last LAST post on the topic I swear to GOD! Ack No! Not all. I was just taking your example and extending it to show that you yourself did consider "more" with a close male friend of yours. (If it were what I was saying, I would have had to have jumped into bed with a heck of a lot of guys in my day as I've had male friendships as well. lol. And I'd also be a hypocrite.) ( eta: I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear before, as I mentioned; expressing my thoughts as they sound in my own head, is not my forte) So anyway, I'm certainly not saying that that EVERY male and female friendship has "gone there" or necessarily considered going there but what I am saying is that in regards to L&S, I do believe that this particular man and this particular woman HAVE considered it (Scotty) or ARE GOING to consider it (ok not so much Lilly at this point because of that massive dung heap that we were talking about that she has to dig her way out of first) but Scotty for sure. And I wouldn't be a shipper if I didn't think that somewhere down the line Lilly might stop running and take a look at what could be there for them. You know, I'm not even saying that either because I have seen friendships on shows where nothing has happened as well. I just don't believe that this show WRT L&S is included in that collection. *shrug* ;D HAHA! That one is safe, you can trust me. (lol I'm just remembering something someone said to me during my debates during my X-File days, "Never trust a shipper" LOL) Anyway, I only wanted to teach you a lesson about abusing Mr. Pukey! |
|
) all the time it would then in turn become its own defiance of the typical cliché. Real life is messy and so far CC has been able to take those notions and deal with them head on. (In fact, recently discovering that Scotty is just now finding closure to Elisa’s death is a perfect example of that. Nothing is cut and dry in life and it was commendable to see them acknowledge that yet again by having him still struggling to accept her death.) I see no difference for an L&S relationship. 
) was that pretty much anything can be considered a cliché if done poorly. You wouldn't notice it as a cliche if done in a solid, believable fashion. Having them NOT get together could even become a cliché in the sense that “oh well, of course they can’t because it’s expected”- but I wanted to know why it is THIS particular point that makes it travel to "unthinkable" territory where you find it to be "beyond repair"? But you've basically answered my question; you're simply unsure of what makes it stand out as "the ultimate" and therefore we can never truly come to any kind of closure on that topic. As cellogal stated so simply and purely. It all comes down to how they handle it. I don’t see it as being a show-breaking "cliché", you do. And never the twain shall meet. 
