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Post by lsr on May 10, 2008 13:34:08 GMT -5
I have no idea what this means - but I think it's you, my friend, who needs a pill or ten... ;D  Well I already know the truth so the red pill wouldn't do any good for me but I think you could definitely benefit  I'm thinking a sedative might be best for me. 
LII2 - Aw. What I wouldn't kill to get a scene where a fight turns into something more. It would have to be on Scotty's part since Lilly is so bull-headed and unable to see what's in front of her but that would be the cutest thing ever. |
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Gina
Reformed Bad Gurl
10%
I like women, wine, and spaghetti.
Posts: 55,003 
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Post by Gina on May 10, 2008 13:44:05 GMT -5
I made a song! It features yankee, it's to the tune of "Welcome To The 60's" from Hairspray. It's very cute, it's called "Welcome to the Shippers". Enjoy! ;D
Welcome to the Shippers
Hey yankee hey yankee,
Look around
Everybody's groovin' to a Lilly/Scotty sound
Hey yankee hey yankee,
Follow me
I know something's in you
That you wanna set free
So let so, go, go of the past now
Say hello to the love in their hearts
Yes, I know that their world's spinning fast now,
But 'cha gotta get yourself a brand new start
Hey yankee, welcome to the shippers!
Oh oh oh oh ooooooooh
Oh, yankee welcome to the shippers!
Oh oh oh oh ooooooooh
Go yankee, go go go!(to the l/s convention!
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Post by lsr on May 10, 2008 15:11:28 GMT -5
I made a song! It features yankee, it's to the tune of "Welcome To The 60's" from Hairspray. It's very cute, it's called "Welcome to the Shippers". Enjoy! ;D Welcome to the ShippersHey yankee hey yankee, Look around Everybody's groovin' to a Lilly/Scotty sound Hey yankee hey yankee, Follow me I know something's in you That you wanna set free So let so, go, go of the past now Say hello to the love in their hearts Yes, I know that their world's spinning fast now, But 'cha gotta get yourself a brand new start Hey yankee, welcome to the shippers! Oh oh oh oh ooooooooh Oh, yankee welcome to the shippers! Oh oh oh oh ooooooooh Go yankee, go go go!(to the l/s convention! haha..  how can she possibly resist now, theme-song and everything! See how nice it is in shipperland? |
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Collider
Loyal to Look Again
CC Socialite[/color]
Heretic Pride
Posts: 458
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Post by Collider on May 10, 2008 15:23:24 GMT -5
Actually, yeah... that's exactly it. A "new level of friendship." Because that's what the friendship is missing - pure honesty. I'd actually find it incredibly sad if a "bonding session," or some sort of emotional breakthrough is written simply as a precursor to some sort of hookup/romance. Why can't two good friends *just* listen, care, and support each other? I think it would totally cheapen any kind of raw, honest conversation if that then became the catalyst for a hookup (whether casual or more, doesn't matter). But how is love cheap?  He loves her, yankee. It's the complete opposite of cheap, imo. I could see where you're coming from if it were just a "hookup" we were talking about where Scotty just wants to sleep with her casually for a one night stand type thing but it's so clear that it WOULDN'T be that for him. Not to... err, again... leap into this thread and inevitably do more harm than good... I think I get where Yankee is coming from, here. A hookup, in the sense she's using it (so far as I'm interpreting such - feel free to correct me, Yankee), pretty much means any method by which a genuine meaningful or significant conversation or, shall we say, "moment" between two characters... is forced, by 'Hollywoodisation', to become Something Romantic. Be that purely sexual, or more deeply emotional, it cheapens the concept of the 'moment', by insisting that any truly deep and meanginful connection between two characters who truly care for each other MUST therein result in romantic love... be it physical or emotional, it doesn't matter; fact is, a moment containing that depth and clarity of insight between two characters cannot exist in a platonic way, and therein must be cheapened by becoming romantic. You can't have a genuine and true love between friends - it has to become "something more"... and, yeah, sorry... IMHO, that cheapens everything the connection has been built upon. For me, Lil and Scotty have an undeniably depthless connection, an emotional and platonic love that goes so far beyond a professional partnership, but which does not delve into the cliche and, yeah, cheap levels of Hollywood Romance (I exclude, here, the admittedly stunning interpretation of romance between the two as put forth by cellogal's fanfic - which I'm more than ready to confess believing in wholeheartedly - because there is a difference between fanfic based on a show and the show proper... and some things expressed in the one should never be expressed in the other; that's the beauty of fandom). Sometimes, at least so far as I'm concerned, a truly deep friendship means a thousand times more than a romantic relationship... and, IMHO, if they take the Lilly/Scotty connection to that level, that 'relationship, romance' level, it will cheapen the depth and the intimacy of their friendship. |
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cellogal
Veteran Detective
Recap Expert[/color]
Don't worry. I'll be polite.
Posts: 710
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Post by cellogal on May 10, 2008 15:35:39 GMT -5
Wow...I'm playing catch-up. Again. Not that I mind; I like it when this thread is hopping!
I agree with Collider, to a point. (You knew that was coming, didn't you, dear?) I think that if the Lilly/Scotty relationship were ever to become romantic in nature, it could either be really great or really terrible, depending on how it was handled. The amazing thing with Scotty and Lilly, and similar partner-type pairings, is that they've been through so much together, they have such a deep connection, that what they have goes way deeper than most romantic relationships, and even some marriages. They have a level of understanding of each other, and commitment to each other, that's really amazing to see, whether it's as a friendship or as something more. And if it ever did become "something more," the typical portrayal of Hollywood romance would cheapen it.
But...it wouldn't have to! If they ever did "go there" with Scotty and Lilly, I imagine they'd do it in a very understated way; the relationship absolutely would not be the focus of the show, and they'd basically act like they do now, with more smiles, a bit more flirting, and a kiss here and there, just like they do when Scotty and/or Lilly has an outside romantic interest. Any more than those little moments, and it wouldn't be Cold Case anymore.
I can, however, appreciate the beauty of platonic relationships. One of my best friends is a guy, and although he and I used to date, we are now more like brother/sister than anything else, and everyone we meet is amazed that we've been able to stay such good friends for over a decade. That's the kind of thing I see between Benson and Stabler on SVU, which is sort of ironic, since there are far more Elliot/Olivia shippers than there are Scotty/Lilly shippers, I think, but to me, there's a spark with Scotty/Lilly that isn't there with Elliot/Olivia. But, I digress.
I guess my point is, I can completely see how their bond could be cheapened by poor treatment of it, but it wouldn't have to. And, in closing, Collider treats the platonic version of Scotty/Lilly so well that, even though I'm a shipper, I'm completely satisfied by the relationship in her story, and it's the only version of Cold Case anything that hasn't left me wanting more for Scotty and Lilly. ;D
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Collider
Loyal to Look Again
CC Socialite[/color]
Heretic Pride
Posts: 458
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Post by Collider on May 10, 2008 16:11:35 GMT -5
I agree with Collider, to a point. (You knew that was coming, didn't you, dear? There's always a point. Curse you, Point! If they ever did "go there" with Scotty and Lilly, I imagine they'd do it in a very understated way; the relationship absolutely would not be the focus of the show, and they'd basically act like they do now, with more smiles, a bit more flirting, and a kiss here and there, just like they do when Scotty and/or Lilly has an outside romantic interest. Any more than those little moments, and it wouldn't be Cold Case anymore. Oi!... it's you that does it! Whether in fanfic, or forum-based banter, you have to go and convince me! 'Cause now I'm picturing a relationship a la Wash/Zoe of Firefly fame, and I'm seeing that, actually seeing it, and seeing it work. 'Cause I do believe in the understated... and I do see that working, in theory. An understated relationship, again, can speak so many volumes more than an overstated "we iz so in LUV!" type one, but the issue I'm still having is that of getting to that point. If it started in that place, from the get-go, as it did with Wash/Zoe... yea, I could see it, and I'd probably be shipping them like whoa. But the problem I have is in making that transition from deep untouchable friendship to that understated, beautiful romance, without... well, overstating it. Because understated has to be... well, understated. And, if a relationship has to be stated - as it would inevitably need to be in a situation like L/S, wherein the relationship isn't there from the get-go, and has to be built - then, by default, it would have to fall into that trap of being stated. And, if something is stated, then it's almost impossible to, err, understate it. If you get what I'm getting at. You can't build a relationship on understatement if it's not there from the beginning... 'cause the beauty of one of those understated relationships is the fact that they don't need to be stated aloud (so to speak). But, if a relationship is not there from day one, and already established... well, it's inevitable and unavoidable that you'll have to acknowledge it aloud (again, so to speak). And, once you find yourself having to state it, even just for the sake of clarity and making the point aloud that it's there and it's real and it's romantic, after five years of it not being there in that way, then you're pretty much screwed in the realms of understatement. I guess my point is, I can completely see how their bond could be cheapened by poor treatment of it, but it wouldn't have to. Oh, feel free to colour me a cynic here... 'cause I'd love to be proved wrong, but I just don't see how they'd manage it. I guess I've just seen too many ships go south too quickly because of this sort of stuff in various fandoms, and it's made me somewhat bitter in the face of seeing things done right. If ever there was a fandom that could prove me wrong, it's CC... and, heck, if it does, I'll be the first to say it does... but, right now... cellogal's fanfic has a MUCH greater chance of changing my mind than the show does. And that's the way it should be. IMHO, at least. Well-written fanfic can take believability to a level that the show can't (and, indeed, shouldn't), and I'm the first to admit that cellogal's fanfic is the best I've ever seen at achieving that... but, again, seeing and believing in something within the realm of fanfic is not the same as seeing and believing it within the fandom itself, and that's a difference that - IMHO - should be sustained at all costs. Or else, what is the fandom but a televised piece of fanfic? And, in closing, Collider treats the platonic version of Scotty/Lilly so well that, even though I'm a shipper, I'm completely satisfied by the relationship in her story, and it's the only version of Cold Case anything that hasn't left me wanting more for Scotty and Lilly. ;D Holy mother of WOW. I really can't express my appreciation and gratitude for that wee statement more adequately, without using one of the "THUD" smileys that'll make the lines all uneven... so I shall waive use of the smiley, and just stick with the gratitude. Of which, please, have in copious amounts. *stops spamming this thread now... honest...* |
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Post by yankee1151 on May 10, 2008 16:19:14 GMT -5
Yes. All of that. Exactly. Collider, can you just write my posts for me from now on? Well... I said it first so I guess this means you agree with ME (yeah, yeah, to a point...) Hey, gotta take what I can get. ;D Hold on... BACK THE F UP. Collider has a story? And it involves platonic Lilly/Scotty? How did I miss this, and where can I find it?? Oh, and, lolgirlyy... funny. A for effort. |
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cellogal
Veteran Detective
Recap Expert[/color]
Don't worry. I'll be polite.
Posts: 710
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Post by cellogal on May 10, 2008 16:40:26 GMT -5
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Post by yankee1151 on May 10, 2008 17:36:29 GMT -5
Thanks! Holy hell, I have a LOT of catching up to do! |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 10, 2008 17:43:21 GMT -5
Here's another fake Shipper picture  Btw - I've updated the next chapter |
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Gina
Reformed Bad Gurl
10%
I like women, wine, and spaghetti.
Posts: 55,003
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Post by Gina on May 10, 2008 20:47:17 GMT -5
HOW in the world do you do this stuff, LII2?
...And is that VERA?
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Post by lsr on May 10, 2008 21:36:55 GMT -5
ACK! I don't even know where to start. First of all, just to clarify a particular point (perhaps my manipulations are what scared you ) I, of course, agree that any relationship that were to happen should be handled in a quiet, understated manner. Absolutely. (I could have sworn we already talked, yankee, about how we never want it to "take over" the entire show.) I've always maintained that I don't want it to do that. Truly. Keeping it a simple, quiet story beside what is already the foundation for Cold Case is all I would ask for. I am the ultimate shipper but I don't want CC to lose its edge just because two of the characters have gotten together. So it basically all boils down to a matter of principle for the non-shipper. You're worried it will turn into a cliche if something were to happen between Lilly and Scotty. Well I hate to say it but, people, we're already there. The show in and of itself has already climbed the 'cliche' ladder (male/female partnership; female detective-woman in a man's world; troubled childhood carrying over to all-consuming misery as an adult; inability to love; the list can go on) Been. Done. Before. Having said that, I'm not criticizing the show by any means. Though the concepts may have been done a hundred times before, the particular writing of CC has always been solid and maintained plausibility that these characters are who they are presented to be. I never question the cliche's because they are so well-written that they sink into the very fabric of who the characters are and what the show is all about. To me, that is the difference between what would make a Lilly/Scotty relationship work and what would send it down the cliche hollywood crapper that you fear; The writing. Almost anything can turn into a cliche if the writing isn't there to back it up. With CC, it is and therefore I don't see how L&S entering into a relationship will cause the show to lose any of that respect or fall into that unnecessary gushy gooey love trap that would morph the show into Melrose-Place-with-cops-who-solve-old-cases-on-the-side. I've said it before, I don't need, nor do I want the mush. What I find funny here is that the Lilly/Scotty relationship is what is focussed on as being ' the' cliche of the show. No denying that it has become one already ("will they won't they") but heck even by NOT having them get together it could become a cliche. What makes Scotty and Lilly admitting love, the only "sure-fire" way of killing the show? It's a beautiful story of two people finding their way to each other amidst all the crap they've had to go through in their lives and I don't see why crossing that line has to affect everything else that makes Cold Case so great. I don't watch SVU so I can't comment but all I know is that these two characters on this particular television show have been presented as more than just platonic, imo. The suggestion is there. I'm not saying that men and women can't only be friends. I'm saying that this man and this woman aren't only friends. You know, if you were to take these characters and place them in the real world as real people; I have no doubt that a real-life Scotty would undergo the same evolution of character/natural human emotion that would lead him to having feelings for a woman such as Lilly. It's human nature to consider that path. You can't tell me that someone who has gone through what he and Lilly have gone through WOULDN'T consider a romantic element to their relationship. It's just not believable. People fall in love. People fall out of love. Simple as that. And I have to give more kudos to the writer's who have made those characters so-well reflected in a realistic way. ETA: I just wanted to add that I would find it utterly unbelievable if L&S didn't have any problems in their relationship. It would be complicated, it would be complex and they would be guaranteed to have issues, as this type of relationship would in real life. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try. What they have is worth trying for, imo. |
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Collider
Loyal to Look Again
CC Socialite[/color]
Heretic Pride
Posts: 458
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Post by Collider on May 11, 2008 4:35:26 GMT -5
The show in and of itself has already climbed the 'cliche' ladder (male/female partnership; female detective-woman in a man's world; troubled childhood carrying over to all-consuming misery as an adult; inability to love; the list can go on) Been. Done. Before. Ladies and Gentlemen, say hello to Reason #5845 why I utterly dislike Lilly Rush. Because, yea, you're spot-on with this. In an awful lot of ways, Lilly is an extremely cliched character (albeit, I'll concede, one who happens to be written and portrayed very well). And, well... you'll see the dilemma we non-shippers (and myself, as the anti-Lilly in particular) are in, when you put it like that - if your main protagonist is already a cliche (and, speaking solely for myself here, one whose cliched backstory &c is pretty high on the list of reasons to dislike that character in the first place)... then bringing along another cliche - even if it is a well-handled one - is kind of just cutting off your nose to spite your face, then turning around and saying "hey, look how clean that cut is!". Or some less colourful metaphor Point is, yea, the character is cliched already... but is that really a legitimate excuse for bringing out more of the same? What I find funny here is that the Lilly/Scotty relationship is what is focussed on as being 'the' cliche of the show. No denying that it has become one already ("will they won't they") but heck even by NOT having them get together it could become a cliche. Well, see, here's the thing... I don't see them throwing out any of those vibes at all (and we are back to the realms of different people's perspectives and perceptions here, but that is mine). I've never looked at them and thought "will they, wont they?" a la most cliched romantic partnerships in fandom - again, I say Ross/Rachel, John/Aeryn to give examples of that cliched WTWT situation - and, in the case of Lilly/Scotty, I think that the vast majority of the "will they, won't they" comes from within the shippers' own minds... in exactly the same way that a lot of my own non-canon pairings are in my own mind, so I'm absolutely not criticising here. Point I'm making is... as the show currently stands, the fact of the matter is that the Lilly/Scotty 'ship IS a non-canon one... and its only existence, in reality, is through fan interpretation - which, as with all non-canon pairings, some fans see and some do not. Where you see "will they, won't they", I see friendship. So, as far as I myself can see, their relationship at the moment hasn't already become that "will they, won't they" cliche, because it's not actually been set up as such within the canon - if it had, every fan would be getting the same message, because they'd be making a conscious point of driving at it. Subtext that can be interpreted either way is not the same as a "will they, won't they" cliche. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 11, 2008 8:10:36 GMT -5
I think Lilly and Scotty will get together, there is so much trust and concern they have for each other. Plus the fact you can tell by the warmness of his eyes he loves her, perhaps Lilly already knows this but is afraid to take the next step. Although she likes the fact he's always protecting her, maybe the two don't really know what love is. They keep on dating the wrong people but never really find what their heart wants inside. When they are around each other both don't feel uneasy or Lilly feeling the need to push him away. In fact Scotty can sense what she's feeling and know when to leave her alone. He's very respectful, caring and understanding of Lilly knowing all that's she's gone throught, but wants to help her through this. What if Scotty's also feeling the pain of being alone like Lilly is maybe just maybe she'll open up somemore; he is the only person she seems to really open up to. Still have hope they will get together since I think this relationship would be a good thing for the both of them. Scotty is the right person for Lilly  |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on May 11, 2008 9:35:01 GMT -5
Here ya go, lsr!  Scotty: Happy Mother's Day, Lil...  Lilly: (thinking) ....Happy Mother's Day? Scotty: Finally, you can quit the Philly PD to raise our first kid....  Lilly: (thinking) ...Quit the Philly PD?? To raise our 'first kid'?  Scotty: ...the first of many to come... Lilly: (thinking) ....the first of many to come?   Lilly: (waking up) What a NIGHTMARE! From now on, no more cheddar jalapeno nachos and tequila before going to sleep!  ;D ;D
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Post by yankee1151 on May 11, 2008 10:11:14 GMT -5
Well, yeah. I don't think it would take over the show. Like you say, it wouldn't be the same show if that happened. But, while I might be able to stomach it (if done in an understated way) that doesn't mean I encourage it. So, what you're essentially saying is that because some elements of the show/characters are cliches, what's one more? Because for me, having the two main characters get together romantically is THE ultimate cliche. I can't quite articulate why, mind you, but for me it would feel like they've run out of ideas (which I've mentioned before). The other cliches that you mention were present from the start. The cliche of Lilly's character doesn't bother me because, as Collider says, she is written and portrayed well. Less so lately (wrt the writing only, as I've mentioned, but hooking her up with Scotty would certainly NOT solve that problem, at least for me). As for the male/female partnership, if they put her with another chick it would draw comparisons to effing Cagney & Lacey, so I'm glad they didn't. I guess that particular cliche doesn't bother me because it's kind of true, she WOULD be the only (or one of the only) female homicide detectives. Also, the premise of the show (cold cases, the use of music & flashbacks) is unique as far as these types of shows go, so I really don't see cliches jumping out at me when I watch (even if many of them are there). But, I totally would if they decided to "go there" wrt Scotty/Lilly. Hey! Leave Melrose Place out of this! Come to think of it, Heather Locklear could really infuse some life into this show, like she did for Melrose. I just don't see it that way. I have acknowledged that Scotty may have feelings for Lilly, but I find it completely believable that he would not act on them, for a number of reasons. I do not think Lilly has feelings for Scotty beyond friendship. Just.not.seeing.it. I think it's totally believable that they could have a deep connection based in friendship and mutual respect as colleagues. And I really appreciate that, because you're right - it would be SO EASY for them to "take it there" (and sure, I'd probably believe it, though I wouldn't like it) but I believe it more (and DO like it) the way it is now. It totally defies the "Hollywood formula" to have a heterosexual (m/f) pair who are good friends and nothing more. Particularly when they are both good looking, partners, and the principals of the show. Male/female friendships happen ALL THE TIME in real life, but not so often on TV, especially when, as I said, all the elements are set up, Hollywood style, for them to get together (straight male/female, hot, partners, leads). I'm so glad they have resisted that particular cliche. |
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Post by lsr on May 11, 2008 13:32:30 GMT -5
Oh, dude. I have so much to say but I absolutely have no time right now to say it. I'm not ignoring your posts, though, I promise I'll be back when I get a chance. Boxman - haha. Funny man you are. Scotty: No one thinks we should have done this. Do you regret it? Lilly: Not in the least. I'm finally happy. You made me believe in something again. By the way, I don't want babies so don't even think it. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 11, 2008 14:50:56 GMT -5
They look so cute together I hope next season they will. I see a great relationship coming out of this
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Post by Kayli on May 11, 2008 15:10:46 GMT -5
Haha, that pic is really good, lsr!! You rock at this!
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cellogal
Veteran Detective
Recap Expert[/color]
Don't worry. I'll be polite.
Posts: 710
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Post by cellogal on May 11, 2008 15:21:42 GMT -5
Lilly: Seriously, does this show NEVER let you take your shirt off? We're IN BED, and you're WEARING a SHIRT. What's up with that? Scotty: I dunno, but I gotta go talk to them. This ain't gonna work long-term. |
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He loves her, yankee. It's the complete opposite of cheap, imo. I could see where you're coming from if it were just a "hookup" we were talking about where Scotty just wants to sleep with her casually for a one night stand type thing but it's so clear that it WOULDN'T be that for him. 
