Episode 1.11: Hubris

[TVFan]

However, for me, Lilly is not playing any game. It comes down to the fact that we are watching Lilly's flaws, here. It's one of the things that makes this character so brilliant. She is not perfect; she can be fearful; she can make bad and/or questionable decisions - as we ALL do when our emotions are getting the better or us and/or we're wading through a lot of our "stuff" to try and figure out where we need to go next. To have her have handled that perfectly would not have been nearly as real. In this case, I do not feel any of this was out of Lilly's character, or allowed her to some how be less strong, less independent, etc. If anything, it showed she IS human, and DOES struggle to find herself some comfortable personal ground - especially with men.

Well said LillyKat. I think this assessment is dead on.

As far as Lil's actual "No," I really think she wasn't dismissing the kiss idea, just the forward way in which Kite informed her that he was going to do it. The way she said it, it sounded like a jokingly "don't be ridiculous" b/c he announced it before he did it. I think he caught her so off guard that her natural reaction was just to say no (because of all that relationship baggage that she carries around). For Kite's sake, he probably would have been beter off just kissing her, but I guess he wanted to gauge her reaction first. I don't know, the "No means no" thing is definitely a tread lightly area.

[frenchfan]

I agree with TVfan, if Lilly really didn't want Kite to kiss her, he wouldn't have because she wouldn't have let him.
But it is not this subject which held my attention.
I try to replace at the time of the 1st diffusion of the episode, when we know nothing of Lilly. She seems to us as definite, strong, full of certainties, sarcastic. This scene with Kite as the following ones take the contrary of it. She seems to be in front of him as a lost child. It is this gap which bothered me.
Because with what we discover of Lilly afterward, I have difficulty in understanding how a woman who knew the love, who was betrayed, can become again as a lost teenager face a man. (Doubtless my personal experience does not help me or rather my own experiment should help me.) It is certain that our own experiences make us perceive things in a different way. But I hear your interesting explanations.

[LillyKat]

TVFan: Agree with you ...

frenchfan: I like how you (and others who have watched the series from the beginning) were able to view this episode without all of the knowledge that we now know about Lilly. I sometimes think that puts me at a disadvantage because I have TOO much info to cross-reference. Your thoughts are very valid.

[boxman]

I'm going to try and get online this evening to post more of my thoughts on this. For now, here's a few entries from wikipedia.org about "Kisses in history, art and literature" to ponder about:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss#Kisses_in_history.2C_art_and_literature

"The Romans distinguished three types of kiss: osculum, a friendship kiss on the cheek; basium, a kiss of affection on the lips; and suavium, a lovers' deep kiss."

"In the fairytale Sleeping Beauty and the Greek myth of Pygmalion and Galatea, a romantic kiss is used by a male to awaken or breathe life into a female, which feminist critics have interpreted as symbolising the suspect idea that women don't have much of a life unless their sexuality is awakened through the attention of men. The Matrix turns the tables on this motif when Trinity kisses the sleeping main character Neo, bringing him back to life at the end of the movie."

"In the Frog Prince fairytale, it is the male who is transformed from frog to man by a romantic kiss."

I also read in my Farmer's Almanac calendar that it is rumoured that the Romans (or was it the Greeks?) invented kissing as a way to taste their wive's mouth to check their sobriety....

[tiger_lilly]

Mmm kissing ;D

Great examples boxman! I really like the last one haha

[michelle]

Having recently had a personal real-life case of no REALLY meaning NO and not being taken seriously I still have to say that in some instances--as in this episode--no can mean "I want you to but I'm scared. Do it anyway." Common sense does come into play here. Some women may not be able to say "no" like they mean it when they really do. Lilly is not one of those women. If she meant NO, Kite--heck anyone--would know it. I did not find this at all to be endorsing the "no may really mean yes" sterotype.

[boxman]

I think when my "feminist" friends and acquaintances object to such a "love scene" between Lilly and Kite, they are interpreting the scene strictly from the point-of-view of male chauvinists. Ignoring the history behind Lilly and Kite, their view isn't as "well-rounded" as what has been expressed here. Their opinion would be biased towards viewing the scene simply as a guy who is trying to get physical with a woman after a dinner date. Their narrow viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's invalid, though. (I definitely do know a few guys who are very aggressive in such a situation and won't back off unless a woman gets physically defensive to underline her "no". I'm sure a few of you have come across such "men"....) I think they just have a more "heightened awareness" to the minority of guys that would view the scene as an example of how it's "okay" to force one's will upon a woman, and the very real dangers involved with such "men" makes their sensitivities understandable to me.

(By the way, not all "feminists" are women. One friend who I think could possibly find something objectionable to "the Kiss" is a guy who likes strong women and doesn't like "jock" characters like Kite.)

Anyway, as for myself, I *did like* the after-dinner kissing scene. It was "classically Romantic" in the way the man confidently took the lead. There was a nice little moment of chivalry that started the scene when the two walked out of the restaurant: Kite guided Lilly to the right side of the sidewalk, on the inside away from the road and traffic. It definitely hinted that Kite is a "Lady's Man", and is very self-assured of himself when it comes to being with a woman. It also hinted that some kind of chemistry must have happened between them during dinner.

That, though, leads me to wonder why did Lilly start heading down the sidewalk on the outside to begin with? Was she just tipsy and disoriented from perhaps having a drink during dinner? Did her street-wise Kensington upbringing leave her unprepared for such social graces? Was she just a bit nervous going out to dinner with a guy, when she's normally still working at that time of the evening? As an independant career woman, does she not care about such subtle nuances when being alone in the company with a man?? Hmmm...

Anyway, I thought "the Kiss" was almost strangely out-of-place in a show that up until this episode, portrayed Lilly as a strong and experienced female career-oriented lead character. It definitely shows how complex her character is. I think the use of Kisses in art and literature to portray the re-awakening of a character also fits in this scene too. This moment seems to be a point in the show's timeline where "career Lilly" wakes up to realize her life needs to be more than just work.

In addition to showing the controlling parallels between Kite and Roy, I noticed the writers showed that Holly and Roy kept their relationship secret, and so did Lilly and Kite. Was this to allude to the way Lilly & Kite's relationship will unfold in future episodes?? That their relationship was going to be more like an "affair" than something serious and long-lasting?? Hmm...

---

"Chickens Lay / People Lie", the phrase that pointed the case back to Professor Roy Minard, is the same phrase written several times on the chalkboard in Roy's "English as a Second Language" classroom. Except on the bottom of the chalkboard, the word "CHICKENS" is partially erased, leaving the phrase "CHICKS LAY", or as it is written on the chalkboard, "CHICK SLAY". Both ways of interpreting the partially-erased phrase on the board reveals a lot about Professor Minard! Whoever thought of writing that is very clever!!!

---

*spoiler warning for those who haven't seen Season Three yet*
This is the second time that I'm aware of that the name "Jesus" is used for a criminal Latino. (The other is in the future 3.06 episode, "Saving Patrick Bubley".) Is this some sort of foreshadow to the episode "Sanctuary" that had a Latino/Christianity theme to it?? Why the tie-in between a religious savior and Hispanics? Is this some sort of hint to Scotty Valens, the Latino who has a psychological need to 'save' women, and his corrupt, immoral behavior in several episodes?? Hmmm.... Verrry odd...

[boxman]

lillykat said:

I also have to say I really enjoyed the scene when Lilly and Scotty are talking to the prostitute, and she asks Lilly to get in the car to talk further - completely dissing Scotty. As that scene plays out, I thought the interaction between Lilly and the prostitute was very touching, very girlfriend-to-girlfriend. I love how there was the whole "best friends" angle between two prostitutes - getting through a very tough profession/point in their lives together. I think sometimes, prostitutes are portrayed as being these shells of life, living way too hard and too fast. I thought this small sub-plot dispelled that stereotype. Although it was a small scene, it had a lot of depth.

When you know the whole series, what's interesting about that scene is that it seems to allude to episode 2.22, "Best Friends" more than a year into the future. Not only was the phrase "best friends" used in that scene, the photos of the two hookers also hints to the cross-racial couple, Rose and Billy!! And like the prostitutes, Rose and Billy had to resort to moonshine--an illegal trade--to make money!!

On the technical side, I noted the ep had some interesting camera angles - lots of foreground/background/off-center shots ... it got a little distracting at times, but it made for one of the more interesting visual eps I've seen thus far.

Did you notice how in one such scene, Holly is walking between an off-focus foreground of a bed of Roses, and a background of a fountain of Water?? Both Flowers and Water are symbols used throughout the series, and also in this episode too. The character "Ophelia" in the Shakespherian play, Hamlet "falls into a stream while collecting flowers [and] drowns without attempting to save herself." The Millais painting also depicts water and flowers. How many television shows do you know of go into such detail?? This show is outstanding!!

[TVFan]

That Ophelia detail was awesome. I loved that Minard was so full of himself that he actually went to great detail to have Holly's body placement mimic a painting. He either figured that those "dumb cops" would never make the connection, and therefore, never suspect someone such as an astute college professor, or he just couldn't help himself. Even murder had to show-off his vast knowledge and intellect. Couple this with the fact that he had the audacity to get Lilly and co. to open a murder just to clear his name (a murder that he committed and smugly assumed he would continue to get away with and now with a clean rep), and you have one egotistical individual. Amazing! The careful attention to detail, though, definitely made this one even better. CC is truly the best at this type of thing bar none.

[boxman]

"Jesus", the name of the episode's second murderer, is definitely an allusion to Christianity.... More later...

[longislanditalian2]

Hmm, Boxman I think you are really onto something here. Leave it you to unhook a lot of the clues.. Maybe all of these references explain something deeper in CC.

[mikencelia]

boxman said:

This is the second time that I'm aware of that the name "Jesus" is used for a criminal Latino. (The other is in the future 3.06 episode, "Saving Patrick Bubley".) Is this some sort of foreshadow to the episode "Sanctuary" that had a Latino/Christianity theme to it?? Why the tie-in between a religious savior and Hispanics? Is this some sort of hint to Scotty Valens, the Latino who has a psychological need to 'save' women, and his corrupt, immoral behavior in several episodes?? Hmmm.... Verrry odd...

I don't know how odd it is. Jesus is the most popular first name given to Latino boys around the world according to record books.

[longislanditalian2]

Hmmm, maybe it was given to give them a sense of guidence or power...
Let me know if I'm wrong

[boxman]

mikencelia said:

boxman said:

This is the second time that I'm aware of that the name "Jesus" is used for a criminal Latino. (The other is in the future 3.06 episode, "Saving Patrick Bubley".) Is this some sort of foreshadow to the episode "Sanctuary" that had a Latino/Christianity theme to it?? Why the tie-in between a religious savior and Hispanics? Is this some sort of hint to Scotty Valens, the Latino who has a psychological need to 'save' women, and his corrupt, immoral behavior in several episodes?? Hmmm.... Verrry odd...

I don't know how odd it is. Jesus is the most popular first name given to Latino boys around the world according to record books.

The second murderer could have been an immigrant from almost any other continent and still "fit" the episode's requirement that he was a student in Roy's ESL course. With this in mind, the second murderer could have had an African, Asian, or Eastern European name. So of the thousands of possibilities, the writers chose a Latino named "Jesus". Not likely a coincidence, in my opinion.

Now here's the catch: The second murderer killed a prostitute. I hope I don't offend anyone, but to use a popular phrase, "What would Jesus do?" This was very "un-Jesus-like"... and actually, rather usual of how Cold Case likes to tell a story. Instead of virtuous individuals doing outstanding things, Cold Case tends to tell a lot of stories of un-virtuous people doing "sinful" things, and be punished for it in the end. (A good example of Cold Case's "reverse storytelling" is the episode "Honor", in which there were several characters committing dis-honorable acts towards their comrades and family members.)

The Biblical "Jesus" treated prostitutes and other sinful women with dignity and respect: He saved a woman from being stoned to death by a mob of people, and forgave a sinful woman who anointed his feet with her tears. So in the show's "reverse storytelling", the Cold Case "Jesus" is oblivious to his namesake and murders a prostitute for a few thousand dollars.

The allusion to Christianity opens up several new dimensions to the episode's storyline.

First, the episode's "anti-Jesus" character seems to represent one of the show's recurring themes: People who ignore history are likely to repeat its mistakes. Because he ignored the origin of his name, the Cold Case "Jesus" put no value to a prostitute's life and was charged with murder.

Second, there were several Commandments broken in the episode:
6) "Thou shalt not murder"
7) "Thou shalt not commit adultery"
8) "Thou shalt not steal" (Jesus stole the diamond, and this helped trace and capture him.)
9) "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Both Barry and Roy lied several times to Lilly and Scotty.)
10) "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house..." (A bit of a stretch, but Barry envied Roy and Holly's relationship; and Holly envied the public relationship Roy and his wife enjoyed.)
5) "Thou shalt honour your father and your mother..." (Again, a bit of a stretch, but Holly didn't have a perfect relationship with her parents...)
1) "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me... .." (Also arguable, but Roy and Jesus's ability to commit murder is seemingly due to their hubris and lack of belief in diety.)

Finally, the idea of an "Unconditional Love" and "Acceptance" for all individuals runs through the Biblical stories of Jesus' relationship with prostitutes and sinners. This episode had several stories of love and relationships: Holly and Roy, Holly and Barry, Holly and her Father, Lilly and Kite, and the two prostitutes that were best friends. Which ones had this type of "Unconditional Love" and "Acceptance"?? The allusion to Christianity evokes thoughts upon this.

---

Roy Minard tried so hard to frame Barry for Holly's murder, but he did so using a very intellectual means that went above the heads of the "blue collar" cops in both Philly and Norristown. It humorously reminded me of The Simpson's "Sideshow Bob"--another intellectual criminal--and how he often failed in his attempts to murder Bart Simpson.

[longislanditalian2]

Boxman-Where do you get this reasearch from?? I just curious about what you wrote in your last post, I acutally sometimes wonder if the writers are religous and put this in purposly to get a point across.

[boxman]

longislanditalian2 said:

...I acutally sometimes wonder if the writers are religous and put this in purposly to get a point across.

I've been wondering about that one for a while too, especially after "Sanctuary". It seems to me that like what ToddSmitts noticed about the "Male/Female Victim Ratio", that the show tries to be even-handed about topics such as religion and other institutions in society. Still, I'd say that by its very nature, the show seems more "Protestant" than "Catholic". Greek philosophy (such as the very origin of the concept of "Hubris"), seems to also weigh very heavily with this show. It only makes sense too, after all, since these episodes are almost all Tragedies.

[eurache]

RE-airing on January 8th, 2008! ;D

[Naj]

Did anyone notice that the Professor Menard acted and sounded like George from Mind Hunters? It was really eerie.

[eurache]

TNT REPEAT - JUNE 11, 2008 (4AM)

[eurache]

RE-AIRING ON TNT - 8/7/08 - 12AM ET