Episode 1.11: Hubris

[sonny]

So you haven't seen Lilly and Kite together in Love Conquers All, Glued, Late Returns and Greed then? If not you will love the way Kite is in those episodes :smile56: :smile56: :smile56: :smile56: :smile56:

[sukkerspinn]

GAaaahh!! I've only seen the one where Kite is with another woman, and they kiss afterwards. That and Lover's Lane. Neighter made a particular good impression of Kite... lol...
:smile11:
I wanna seeeeee!!!

[sonny]

I've started a thread of Lilly and Kite clips in the art and video thread.

[sukkerspinn]

:smile2: :smile2: :smile2:
:smile4: :smile4: :smile4:
:smile49: :smile49: :smile49:

[TVFan]

I loved these two together until Kite started to act like a jerk. He was awesome with Lil until that point (Late Returns when he made the ultimatum, although he was fine after that until Lovers' Lane). LOVED him in Disco Inferno and Hubris. Now you guys have me missing these two!

[sukkerspinn]

I just saw Judging Amy yesterday (ep. 20 s. 6), and the guy who played Roy Minard in Hubris (Jeffrey Nordling), guest starred in Judging Amy yesterday also. The funny thing is, that in this one too, he was a creepy professor. He was also a wife-abuser and just basically a creep. Guess he fits that role..lol..

[byrdman9802]

Good evening everyone,

Hello, it's the Byrdman just coming at you tonight. I hope that you all are doing great, and that your weeks are all going as great as mine is!

Yes, I just saw a posting for this ep on TNT's site. Hubris will be rerun on Tuesday, December 13 at 10 pm (central time) on TNT (channel 245). Just some FYI.

Take care, and have a rocking night, everyone!

[anna16profiler]

Oh this episode,how i love it
and not only the Lilly and Kite stuff, though that was sooo beautiful.. :smile14:
wow this kiss, i will never forget it, but i haven´t seen that kiss for too long, so i have to write about it ;D :smile56:

okay to the episode... wow a real good case, i think the idea was very very interesting... i also liked how lilly and scotty learned some stuff from the killer, it was very interesting..... i never really thought it was barry, the mental ill guy.. he just didn´t seem like they type, but i never really suspected the professor as lilly didn´t too... :smile11:

[foxfire0114]

ah yes.. that kiss!

[TVFan]

The romantic in me thinks that that kiss is the best ever in primetime! Everything was just perfect - the snow, the music, the timing - everything! And I just loved how she got so nervous and backed into the trash can! Classic! It was the first time that we got a glimpse at a more vulnerable side to Lilly. Before that scene, she always seemed so together, but with Kite, she was always in pieces because of the vulnerability. Kathryn did an excellent job shifting between both sides of Lilly in that episode.

[anna16profiler]

oh ys Kathryn did and does a marvelous job showing these different sides of lilly, oh how i enjoy that...

and don´t forget, not just the snow and stuff was perfect, also both of them, they were so cute... well i mean when he told her, she said pretty vehement NO and he just did it, it was almost for a moment like she was somewhat afraid, ´well that begun when he asked her "how come we always talk about work" and his face kept getting down to her and she just said, ahhh i go home, bye bye, yes sure i can rake care herself... crashing into a trash can... yeah yeah lilly you can...
awww that is morst definitely the most beautiful kiss i have ever seen... wow so gentle and romantic... the snow...
starts dreaming-.. drifting of...

[nicky]

*revives*Thought I'd say what I thought of this episode. As I have not commented on any yet.

I see this about a few months ago, on repeats, that's when I first started getting in to Cold Case.

I loved this episode, Lilly and Kite awww, Lilly getting nervous and backing in to the bin, bless, What I got was that she was so focused on work and that romance was not on her agender, untill Kite. The kiss was romantic although you could see the nervousness it was perfect. So sweet. The setting of it was just so right with the snow falling.

Although I really can't remember much about this episode *hides* You will always remember the Kiss.

[boxman]

Wow.... Loved this episode. Very, very clever writing.... Deep, layered, and very rich. Here's just one example:

Cold Case seems to have a significant number of female viewers with strong feminists values. This is why I'm a bit curious as to why no one has **complained** about the Lilly and Kite kissing scene?? Consider how the murderer did turn out to be the professor, and that he killed her when he could no longer control her as she decided to end the relationship:

Professor Minard: "I say when it's over. I make the rules. I decide. I DECIDE!"

And compare:

ADA Kite: "Stand still, okay?" .... "I'm going to kiss you." ... "All you gotta do is stand there, don't panic. It'll be over in three seconds."

You see, many feminists I know would object to such a "love scene" between Kite and Lilly, where the male continues with his advances after the woman says "No", even as she is laughing. It's the popularization of such scenes that leads to "male myths" such as "When a woman says 'no' she really means 'yes'." This kind of attitude among men is generally taken to be a strong factor in non-stranger/date rapes. Comments, anyone??

By comparison, its also interesting to note that Professor Minard's controlling behavior is shown at the end of his relationship with Holly, while Kite's controlling behavior is shown at the start of the relationship with Lilly...

Also very peculiar is that the creepiest guy in this episode, Barry, turns out to be a guy who *does* respect a woman's wishes when he's turned down.

---

Again, another automotive reference to crime in this episode. Water is used a bit strangely. It was snowing during Kite & Lilly's kiss, indicating change for the two of them. This seems a good use of the symbolism. Yet, on the other hand, both murder victims were put to rest in the Schyulkil River. That seems an odd use of the Water symbolism. Change in the status between life and death perhaps?? Hmm... Actually, even though Philly has a lot of murders (about 300 a year), not many bodies turn up in that river as the show likes to portray. I find it kinda humorous that the writers portray the river as some sort of big "dumping ground" for murder victims, because most of this city gets its drinking water from that river.

"Holly" is another plant that has white flowers (like Lillies...). These white flowers turn into red berries that are "mildly toxic" to humans. A symbolic reference to something that started off pure and innocently, then turned angrily into poison?? Hmm....

[soccerulz]

About the kiss....I loved it! I always have, always will. I consider myself a 'mini feminist' - but for some reason that doesn't bother me. Now that you mention it, I think I should be somewhat ticked off, but I'm not. I thought the whole scene was cute. And I do the same sort of thing - the 'giggling/smiling' no, and go ahead and let him kiss me anyway.

Huh, haha, it's like a light bulb is going off in my head. I always wondered why some guys insist that when a girl says no she really means yes. Guess I'm a part of the problem *mental note NOT to do that anymore*

That's really interesting about the water and about Holly too Boxman. Sheesh, you always pick up on the tiniest things. I've seen this episode at LEAST 100 times (no exaggeration! haha) and I had never thought about either of those things.

[frenchfan]

boxman said:

Cold Case seems to have a significant number of female viewers with strong feminists values. This is why I'm a bit curious as to why no one has **complained** about the Lilly and Kite kissing scene??

I consider more as an independent woman than as a feminist (this term is so often tarnished). And about this kiss, even if the scene is cute I believe it's the only time in two seasons where I found Lilly in gap with her character of strong, independent, definite woman (especially in this season 1), in front of Kite in this episode she is as a teenager, certainly it is one doubtless the popular effect, but personally I had difficulty in subscribing.

Boxman very interesting about Holly.

The holly is also known for its therapeutics virtues. The Dr Bach, the English doctor, worked out in the 30s quintessences of flowers among 38, called today " flowers of Bach ". They are intended to look after the troubles of the soul and to find the balance of our emotional states. Holly would allow to fight against the jealousy, the envy, the suspicion. The latent anger to the others. Antidote of the hatred.
THE FLOWER of " the hardness of heart towards the magnanimity ". The flower of the opening of the heart.
When the antidote becomes poison.

[tiger_lilly]

boxman said:

Professor Minard: "I say when it's over. I make the rules. I decide. I DECIDE!"

And compare:

ADA Kite: "Stand still, okay?" .... "I'm going to kiss you." ... "All you gotta do is stand there, don't panic. It'll be over in three seconds."

You see, many feminists I know would object to such a "love scene" between Kite and Lilly, where the male continues with his advances after the woman says "No", even as she is laughing. It's the popularization of such scenes that leads to "male myths" such as "When a woman says 'no' she really means 'yes'." This kind of attitude among men is generally taken to be a strong factor in non-stranger/date rapes. Comments, anyone??

At first I was like "why haven't I thought of this before?!" But then I realised that (well, that is how I look at it) the reason why we allow this scene without "complaining" is because of who Lilly is and what we know about her. We KNOW she is not a weak woman who would allow him to kiss her if she didn't really want him to. We know that Lilly is a woman who rarely lets her guard down and so we LOVE it when it happens.

But I do see your point boxman, definitely.

I love the holly theory .

[TVFan]

I wouldn't consider myself a "feminist," but more of an "independent woman" as Frenchfan said, so I'm not sure how valid this response will be toward this discussion, boxman. Anyway, here it goes...

First of all, I want to say that I completely agree with tiger_lilly's post about how we don't get mad because we know Lilly and we know that she wouldn't let Kite do something that she wasn't comfortable with (witness next week's TNT rerun "Glued" for more). I would also like to state for the record (just in case I haven't stated it enough ) that I absolutely LOVE that kiss. It's on my list of all-time best!

The crux of this whole thing for me is evaluating things on a case-by-case (no pun intended ) basis. If the scene had been between Roy Minard and Holly right after she broke up with him, then I would be upset by the blatant disregard of her wishes, but since it was between strong, independent Lilly and Kite (who, now that I think about it, tried to control most of the relationship from there on out and therefore, wasn't the best match for Lilly, even if I did like what he brought out in her). The thing is, we saw how rattled Kite left Lil with their first encounter in "Love Conquers Al." If his affection for her was only one-sided, she wouldn't have been as uncomfortable as she was with him in that scene. She displayed the same rattled emotions whenever she was around Joseph in this season's finale (and we all know that she likes him). I think Lilly always had feelings for Kite, but she was not about to act on them. When she finds him in the street to talk to him about the warrant, she displays the same "unglued" behavior. We hear her make the embarrassing comment that she wouldn't know what to do with herself if she went home at 7 p.m.

Later, she grows more and more uneasy until she bumps into the trash can (still one of my fave "Lilly moments"). She was a bundle of nerves most likely because she had feelings for this guy. This is the one area of her life that she is unable to successfully control, and I think that bugs her a bit. She knew what was coming, but I think that Kite caught her off-guard by being so forward. Her "no" was more of a reaction to that IMO, than an actual no. If Lilly really didn't want Kite to kiss her, he wouldn't have because she wouldn't have let him. I have no doubt in my mind that deep down she wanted him to kiss her, even if her sensible side didn't. That scene is sort of the pinnacle of Lil's inner conflict when it comes to relationships. She "says" she doesn't want them, but inside she knows that she does.

And I know I just further proved your argument, boxman, and the truth is, you're right. Girls/women sometimes say "no" when they mean "yes" and men are "supposed" to decipher the difference between a flirty "no" and a real one, so evaluating these incidences on a case-by-case basis doesn't work well in the real world. But for the sake of this scene in isolation, the circumstances and the characters make it clear enough that nobody is participating in something they don't want.

[Naj]

You see, many feminists I know would object to such a "love scene" between Kite and Lilly, where the male continues with his advances after the woman says "No", even as she is laughing. It's the popularization of such scenes that leads to "male myths" such as "When a woman says 'no' she really means 'yes'." This kind of attitude among men is generally taken to be a strong factor in non-stranger/date rapes. Comments, anyone??

I did like the kiss scene in Hubris although I felt lilly was totally uncomfortable. (inner issues). But she did allow him to kiss her. But if she said no. Then no really means no and Kite shouldn't have to figure it out. He should respect it and back off. This is where some men don't get it. They think they are suppose to figure out something. If a woman says "no" when she really means "yes" then she says no and you respect it. There's really nothing difficult about it.


I love the trash can scene too TVFan and I've always felt Lilly is just plain scared of men and intimacy. Plus men tend to move in on a relationship to make it physical so fast. Like within the first three dates. I prefer those European type relationships. You hang around for months before you even think of trying to kiss someone.

[tiger_lilly]

tvfan said:

She was a bundle of nerves most likely because she had feelings for this guy. This is the one area of her life that she is unable to successfully control, and I think that bugs her a bit. She knew what was coming, but I think that Kite caught her off-guard by being so forward. Her "no" was more of a reaction to that IMO, than an actual no. If Lilly really didn't want Kite to kiss her, he wouldn't have because she wouldn't have let him. I have no doubt in my mind that deep down she wanted him to kiss her, even if her sensible side didn't. That scene is sort of the pinnacle of Lil's inner conflict when it comes to relationships. She "says" she doesn't want them, but inside she knows that she does.

So well said TVFan, I completely agree.

[LillyKat]

Wow, quite the discussion going here about "the kiss" ...

Firstly, I have to say I really enjoyed finally getting to see this ep in its entirety. I had downloaded the kiss clip as I was trying to catch up in advance on various key "moments" from the series, so I knew it was going to pop-up, but I really kind of got into the ep on the whole (not just for the kiss).

I thought the professor was a brilliant villain. He was suave, charming, arrogant, creepy, evil, angry, twisted ... lots of dimensions. I thought he WAS going to be found innocent, so it was a nice twist at the end when we see his true colors.

I also have to say I really enjoyed the scene when Lilly and Scotty are talking to the prostitute, and she asks Lilly to get in the car to talk further - completely dissing Scotty. As that scene plays out, I thought the interaction between Lilly and the prostitute was very touching, very girlfriend-to-girlfriend. I love how there was the whole "best friends" angle between two prostitutes - getting through a very tough profession/point in their lives together. I think sometimes, prostitutes are portrayed as being these shells of life, living way too hard and too fast. I thought this small sub-plot dispelled that stereotype. Although it was a small scene, it had a lot of depth.

On the technical side, I noted the ep had some interesting camera angles - lots of foreground/background/off-center shots ... it got a little distracting at times, but it made for one of the more interesting visual eps I've seen thus far.

Now for Lilly and Kite ... first, I continue to like how Lilly is in these earlier eps (which I've mentioned before) - it's all about the spunk. I also like the chemistry between the characters (and the actors). I love the look she gives when she has no other choice but to join Kite at dinner; the whole stumble-into-the-trash-can-"I'm-packin'" line; and the the genius post-kiss meet at the elevator where Kite says, "I guess we won't talk about the other thing," and Lilly answers "Yeah ... O.K." then walks off. I laughed pretty good at that whole exchange. It was just perfectly executed by both actors, and it had such a comedic undertone to the rather cute awkwardness.

As for the whole kiss/"no means yes" ... I am going to perhaps take a different angle on it and say that I actually thought there would be more lead up to the actual kiss. Meaning, as I am watching at this point in episode 11 of Season 1, we only have really gotten a couple of handfuls of Kite's interest in her (and Lilly's potential interest in him; if anything, she's pretty much dissed him up to this point - even if that is just a front). There is, as I can see, nothing seemingly overt - just sort of flirty, "checking you out" back and forth. Yes, Lilly seems to be kind of bewildered about it - do I like him? do I not? what is this?

So, for me, to have him make that big of a scene to kiss her seemed awfully quick and forward (which Kite is). Yet, it takes two to tango, and Lilly seemed O.K. with it - in almost a let-me-try-this-maybe-it-won't-be-so-bad type way. If we figure she has some serious baggage from prior relationships, perhaps Kite's forwardness was the ONLY way she was ever going to explore her feelings for him given she would not initiate it on her own.

As for the whole "no means yes" thing ... I think we get into trouble here because there are women who do play the "no means yes" manipulation game. As a result, we all end up paying for this. No does mean no.

However, for me, Lilly is not playing any game. It comes down to the fact that we are watching Lilly's flaws, here. It's one of the things that makes this character so brilliant. She is not perfect; she can be fearful; she can make bad and/or questionable decisions - as we ALL do when our emotions are getting the better or us and/or we're wading through a lot of our "stuff" to try and figure out where we need to go next. To have her have handled that perfectly would not have been nearly as real. In this case, I do not feel any of this was out of Lilly's character, or allowed her to some how be less strong, less independent, etc. If anything, it showed she IS human, and DOES struggle to find herself some comfortable personal ground - especially with men.

If she really did not want Kite to do anything, she would have clocked him. That does not excuse the "no" line ... but nothing ever will.