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Post by TVFan on Oct 23, 2006 11:31:58 GMT -5
So much to say... I completely agree with Naj's assessment of Lilly acting like a child at certain moments. And I think that this: is an excellent theory LII. We heard Lilly say during her interrogation with Ruby that her mother always chose Chris over her. I think this is one time where we can be sure that this wasn't a lie. We've seen evidence of it in the past, especially when we met Ellen and she quickly dismissed any negative comments about her younger daughter. When you're a child, this can be a very scaring way to grow up. It also speaks to the pattern in Lilly's life that no one has ever loved her the way they should, so when someone comes along who does (Joseph), she's not sure how to react. "I don't want to be alone." This is the most telling line of the night. As desperate as it came across, I think there was a lot of truth behind it. You know, it's easy to go through life alone when you are alone, but having someone and watching them walk away, is a completely different situation. Lilly had gotten used to having someone around -- a warm body next to her in bed every night. When she threw out that line, I knew that she was upset about losing that and not so much about losing Joseph. I have no doubt that he was her "consolation prize" and I think that he made the right decision. It was absolutely heart wrenching, though, to watch that break up scene. Lilly was not as committed to him nor were her feelings as strong as his were for her. It wasn't fair for her to decide after a long walk that Joseph was the one for her because he wasn't the one leaving for California. No matter what Ray decided to do last night, Lilly should never have chosen Joseph. I'm not saying that she should be with Ray, either, but the fact remains -- she still has some serious feelings for him. That kissed they shared in the hospital was hot! There was real emotion behind it and a real sadness when she walked out of the room. I'm so torn about these two. The show has done a brilliant job of allowing its audience to go through the same emotions as its lead character. Like Lilly, I think that she and Ray should ultimately end up together, but also like her, I don't know how that's even possible. Her comment to Joseph about Ray was how he isn't the "settling down type." Not about how they aren't good together, or that he's not a good person, or even that she doesn't have those types of feelings for him. Another telling line, IMO. The case was strong as well. I liked the way Scotty was more inclined to try to understand Brent because of his past with someone with a mental illness. We knew why without the show telling us. I also liked all of the twists and turns in this one. I knew something was fishy with the sister's story about her brother being home all night, but I dismissed it until we found out the gun belonged to her parents. I knew that either she, her boyfriend or Brent was involved somehow. I liked that the boyfriend ended up being the doer. He was under tremendous emotional stress because of his parents' separation and fighting, so it seemed plausible that it would push him to do what he did. The episode's only flaw -- I would have expected Doug to be more affected today by what he did in his past. He wasn't a cold-blooded killer. I think this is why I actually felt bad for him. It's funny because all of the clues for solving this case were right there, but I didn't put them all together until the end. I love when this show toys with us like that. I, too, noticed the parallels between the stories in the case and Lilly's own personal drama. I love that as well boxman. It's so clever, and it shows such a strong sense of awareness. Overall, another strong outing this season. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the trend continues.  |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 23, 2006 11:46:10 GMT -5
Could it be that Joseph was Jeolous of Ray?? Also keep in mind that Lilly risked her Job to be with him in the first place not Ray. I'll take a quote from the episode Daniela " When right person you've been looking for all you life , comes along you don't walk away from it".
Lilly did exactly that she didn't want Joseph to walk away from her. She did love him, and it showed but I have a feeling that Joseph wasn't truely in love with her as he claimed to be. He was foolish not to have given her a second chance, trust me if given Lilly would have not let him slip away a second time.
Before she starts dating once again she should , get her emotions settled before they wander off again . Maybe seeing a social worker would help
Lilly also is emotionally distant , due to the way she was raised she can't connect full on that level .
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Post by Naj on Oct 23, 2006 13:06:17 GMT -5
TVFan said: I wasn't an MC Man fan last season but now I like him. This all seems to have been pulled out from under us. So it will be interesting to see what happens next for Lilly. Is she going to fall apart? It's obvious her child years have left her scarred.  I orignally had this in my prior post but took it out for lack of proper wording. But I agree. This a great trait they gave his character when Alissa/Eliss (still don't know how to spell her name) was his girlfriend. eta: Lilly had some spunk in her interrogation with Stillman of Doug. I like the needling Lilly can create in questioning. Also was great in the Ruby one too. Now that's our Lilly.  |
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coldcasegirl
Lilly Rush
Sleuthing for Clues [/color]
Posts: 2,279
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Post by coldcasegirl on Oct 23, 2006 19:28:39 GMT -5
WOW!!!This episode was completely AWESOME! I loved the story and all of the music. The drama was the best I have ever seen and Kathryn played so great in this ep! Joseph is a complete IDIOT for breaking Lilly's heart like that! She should have been more open, yes, but he is a....UGH! So many words to describe what Joe is! OMG....the Ray and Lilly scene was so sweet yet heartbreaking at the same time! When she kissed him my heart completely went numb, I guess you could say, you KNOW she wanted to go with him! He better not be leaving for real, anyhow! He is supposed to stick around and be there for her! I watched that kissing scene like 16 times in a row! I only watched the breakup scene once b/c my heart just couldn't bear the thought of Lilly getting hurt.....AGAIN!! All of the memories of the Kite breakup came flooding back to me. I just hope she finds happiness with Ray, whether some like him or not, AT LEAST HE STUCK WITH HER! Esp. for that long of time! The way Scotty acted towards Brent was really amazing! He was so funny when he made Vera take his tie off; which reminds me, this is probably one of the funniest eps. for Vera....he had such dry humor, even though some of it was mean. Danny Pino also played his character very well in this episode! And Doug was pretty HOTT!, even though he murdered her parents....such a shame! It's crazy what love will make you do...which makes me think of Lilly when she was trying to bear listening to Doug saying that he was lovesick, RIGHT AFTER her and Joseph ended....all in all, this episode is my most favorite ever! (so far! ;D) and as I always say...."I CAN'T WAIT TIL NEXT WEEK!" 
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 23, 2006 21:23:37 GMT -5
the ending song lyrics " please come back to me" really goes with the heartbreak that Lilly is suffering. This wasn't like when Kite had broken up with her, she really did love Joseph that when he broke up with her , it felt like her heart was smashed into a million pieces. The ending Scene she was close to tears, I really think he should have given her another chance
Joseph didn't fully understand the situtation or think it through instead he walked away, leaving Lilly in tears. She knows she doesn't want to be alone, what happened to the man who listened to her about her dad walking out. Didn't he have a simliar upbring to know what she was feeling? He couldn't wait until she calmed down before trying to sort out what really happened, instead of listening to her running emotions??
I'm glad Lilly's single again, she needs to sort out her inner emotions and realize she can't change her past but can change her future.
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom 
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Oct 23, 2006 22:34:48 GMT -5
I don't think we need to feel sorry for Lilly. She does plenty of that herself. Sometime I just wanna shake her and say--GROW UP, LADY! Quit whining about how everyone's wronged you, go out and MAKE IT BETTER. But, like I said on Sn1, maybe, like addicts, she needs to hit rock bottom before deciding to get help. It ain't easy realizing you have a problem. Especially when it's a fundamental personality/socialization problem. Like before, if I feel differently after I've watched the episode, I will eat my shorts. You can choose what goes with it, Boxman. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Oct 23, 2006 23:25:47 GMT -5
...Like before, if I feel differently after I've watched the episode, I will eat my shorts. You can choose what goes with it, Boxman. My choice, huh? Ohhh--kayyyy!!!!  |
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605 
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Oct 24, 2006 1:59:25 GMT -5
About the key. The key in this case was I believe the key to Joseph's place. By making the key Joseph was wanting to go to the next level. In a way that key symbolizes Joseph.
What is interesting is that while Lilly pushes away the key a metaphor for pushing Joseph away, she does not completely knock the key off the couch. It is still there, and still within her immediate reach.
On one hand I didn't want her Joseph, but I'm not sure if I want "Lonely Lilly." What's starting to bug me is that they're already starting to portray her as the typical "cat lady" and sod forbid we see this...
Show Lilly surrounded by 50 cats. She's rocking in a chair while petting Olivia the IVth
*shudders*
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myril
Veteran Detective
Merry One [/color][/center]
Posts: 795
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Post by myril on Oct 24, 2006 2:23:19 GMT -5
I'm not convinced, that Lilly loves Joseph more than she did love Kite. Love is not about not being alone, but about being together. Don't leave me, don't want to be alone - that sounds more like a little girl crying for daddy keeping her comfortable, not like someone ready to give love. Not saying I don't understand or feel for Lilly, but I think basically she is doing what her mum did -and doesn't realize it. Some great continuity of character here, some arc from thebreak-up with Kite, to the scene with Ellen Rush in Beautfiful Fool (she called Kite, the writers might have just thought, great way to open a door for him again, but it has an interesting subtle note now, doesn't it? Calling Kite instead of Ray and now seeing Ray instead of Jospeh, hmm) and now this. Agree with Duster, maybe Lilly has to hit rock bottom before getting it.
As I wrote on source#1 - Lilly, stop seeing yourself as victim. Sure, nothing she wants to do, but she is so focused on her own pain, that she can't see what other people feel. It's always her, mum betrayed her and favoured Chris, dad left her and not the family, Scotty shut her out not she him etc... Lilly is on a professional level as cop great to intuitively understand what moves someone else, a perp, but she is not good in seeing what motivates people around here. Still remember how she barked at Chris - and know that many people thought Chris deserved it, but I always thought it was unfair that way. LII nailed it pretty much down, Lilly aches for attention, having an unsatisfied need for it because looking back it seems like as child she never got it. Well, how to learn to give something as essential as love if you never really learned from others how to do it? If she wants to get over it, she has to stop pittying herself.
Well, maybe this season we get to see what we expected already last season, a breakdown. At least I think we're witnissing for quite a time now some struggle. We wanted an aftermath after The Woods. Think we get it over a long time in a subtle way and IMO that is quite realistic - though a bit unusual for TV.
Thinking of it, some great writing to put this all into this episode, where the story is about an autist young boy as main witness. Because, in a way you could say, Lilly has some autistics traits as well.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 24, 2006 9:39:30 GMT -5
Thinking of it, some great writing to put this all into this episode, where the story is about an autist young boy as main witness. Because, in a way you could say, Lilly has some autistics traits as well. Maybe that is true, like Brent Lilly doesn't like people too close to her .. |
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Post by TVFan on Oct 24, 2006 9:56:20 GMT -5
I'm not convinced, that Lilly loves Joseph more than she did love Kite. Love is not about not being alone, but about being together. Don't leave me, don't want to be alone - that sounds more like a little girl crying for daddy keeping her comfortable, not like someone ready to give love. This is exactly how I saw it, myril. You articulated it so much better than I did. She came across as desperate for Joseph not to leave her like everyone else has done in the past. I felt that Joseph was completely within his rights to dump her after the way that she behaved, but after reading a lot of your comments, I have a slight change of heart. Perhaps, he was too quick to run at the first sight of trouble (like Kite). I think he was just reacting without thinking it through -- a big mistake. But, I still feel that he saw a pattern and got out before things got too far. The thing is, and he obviously doesn't understand this, Lilly needs A LOT of time to open up and trust completely. He was trying to push her (with the I love you, etc.) and that will only push her away. I think, given the chance, Lilly would have come around with Joseph, but it would have been after she fully reconciled her feelings for Ray. It almost seems to me that she and Ray need to try out the relationship thing to see if it works now. If it doesn't, at least she won't wonder anymore. If it does, then they're meant to be together. Either way, she needs to know before she can have a successful relationship with anyone. This has really impressed me as well, myril. This show has always been about subtleties from the beginning, but watching Lilly slowly and quietly self destruct since the George incident, has been nothing short of brilliant. Both the writing and the acting (the wonderful Kathryn) have been awesome! |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 24, 2006 12:45:28 GMT -5
But Lilly said Good-bye to Ray and headed out to take a long walk, didn't she have some time to collect her thoughts? If Joseph really wanted to save their relationship he should have confronted her earlier not wait for the last second, I don't think he truely cared about her . Lilly should have stopped going on about Ray in front of Joseph like that, she was getting so emotionally worked up.
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Oct 24, 2006 16:47:20 GMT -5
 I watched it! Ok, I haven't changed my mind about the personal part, so I won't comment on it further. The case was excellent!!! I honestly think this one fits the BEST CASE I'VE SEEN category. Sorry to drool over it so much, but the portrayal of the autistic kid and his family was PERFECT. The character who was taking bribes to let kids in the school was just too hatefully realistic for his own good. Kick in the butt! The only character I didn't buy so much was the boyfriend/doer. He'd have to be seriously disbalanced to do what he did and just go on with life. I didn't buy his motives or the way he did it. I loved the acting during the murder scene though--throughout the whole episode. Acting was excellent! Music and underscore get a big round of applause from me too.  And Scotty totally surprised me. I dunno if it had anything to do with Elisa, or maybe this kid just struck a chord in him. But the way he connected with Brent was very sweet and believable. Awesome acting, just awesome. Standing ovation for Danny Pino. 
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Post by Naj on Oct 24, 2006 17:00:26 GMT -5
I think in this episode they finally figured a way to allow Danny's acting status for the show to be show cased with out affecting Kathryn's status. It worked very well and having the Elissa angle seems to be what works for the Scotty character. What I did like is that he did his thing and Lil did hers and then the two come back together at the end to close the case. That's brilliant on whoever figured out how to do this. I think this is a one of those best of the season cases too. But I thought last weeks was just as strong and for reasons of last's weeks being more in line with the early years of the show. As you say the only weak point was the boyfriend. It was a heck of an ep and something fresh and new.  |
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Post by schafferius on Oct 25, 2006 7:25:26 GMT -5
WOW!!! I have to say this is probably the best episode I have seen in a long time......I hope that the break-up will cause Lilly to become a tough-arsed cop like she was in the old days............Glad the whole triangle thing is over............they really made the case with this one!!!
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Post by Naj on Oct 25, 2006 11:18:14 GMT -5
Hi schafferius! I thought Lilly's interrogations were tougher than we saw last season. That's a good sign. Also did anyone notice the table Lilly picked up her key from Joseph was worn where the key was. Like, maybe, this is the place her key gets put when there's a break up? WOW!!! I have to say this is probably the best episode I have seen in a long time......I hope that the break-up will cause Lilly to become a tough-arsed cop like she was in the old days............Glad the whole triangle thing is over............they really made the case with this one!!! |
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Post by sonny on Oct 25, 2006 11:27:10 GMT -5
All I'll say is I loved it! Excellent episode. Felt so bad for Lilly I almost cried!  |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 25, 2006 11:28:11 GMT -5
Why did the Camera focus on Lilly's hand maybe a sign of Loneliness? I don't think she's going to get over Joseph quickly like she did with Kite. Lilly really did love Joseph more then we think she did, I don't agree about what he said to her " Maybe you want to" referring to her being alone. Lilly doesn't want to be alone , she's sick and tired of being this way. It wasn't a lie but there's an emotional breakdown happening deep inside of her. Her heart is sore and deeply broken, she really thought that Joseph was going to be the one that was going to be with her always and forever.
I think if Joseph really wanted to save their relationship, he should have not waited at home for her. If he really knew her, he would have come down to headquaters and spoken to her privately before this ever happened. I have a feeling that Joseph might have thought she was cheating on him but he just assumed it without directly asking Lilly. She didn't do that , Ray already knew she was in a relationship.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Oct 25, 2006 13:07:13 GMT -5
In both Lover's Lane and This episode Lilly gets dumped. But I noticed something Similar. Lover's Lane after Kite Dumped Her  Saving Sammy after Joseph Dumped her  See anything familiar |
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
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Post by Disasterfreak on Oct 25, 2006 18:20:29 GMT -5
You mean besides the cats?? And the duskiness (sp?)? Or... wait, that she holds her stomach. Ugh. Please don't start speculating on that baby thing. I don't wanna give the writers any more bad ideas.
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