Ep. 4.04 Baby Blues

[Naj]

The Reverend Bizarre says:

The second reason? Blue is the color of hope and depression. An irony that Iris would be born during a snowstorm as a "hope", but then killed during a snowstorm because of her mom's "depression" aka Pyschosis.

That was truly sad. And the deer that came up to them. So I guess the mother got up took the child back in the house and put her in her crib and went to bed and then didn't remember what she had done? That sounds like what happened to my friend. It gets blanked out or distorted from the actual events.

[longislanditalian2]

What I didn't get that Lilly knew Ray when she was 10 , why did she say that she took off for two weeks without knowing him, was he the same guy or a different? Also she broke her jaw when she was 19, did this happen twice or once??

I was waiting the scene to be over, since I don't like him but I enjoyed this episode even though it really moved me to tears.

[papertiger]

Did anyone else notice that Ray's hospital tag said:

"Patrick, Ray"?

[longislanditalian2]

Hmm, Maybe I noticed it too maybe it's somehow connected to the Patrick that Lilly was engaged too??

[Pixie]

I give this eppy an Excellent.

It's just so sad how Iris died, I thought i would be a typical; Brother kills little sister episode, but it wasn't, it was original.
But there are a few things I don't understand/know.

1) - How old is Ray, I mean was he 20 and Lilly 19 or was he 25-30...??

2) Why wasn't the ghost of Iris "seen"??

[longislanditalian2]

I think I was more focused on the case But I loved how Lilly handled this case and Scotty and Kat's little talk in the office. Scotty has gotten more cutier this season!!

Maybe the writers didn't want to show Iris's ghost.

[myril]

Give this episode a good. Reluctant to say excellent, but that's a matter of perspective perhaps. Would give that only if an episode totally convinces me - and not only as Cold Case episode. But story, acting and directing were well done.

The case was one for soul and mind. Meaning, it touched emotion and made pensitive. Didn't need to guess who - would have been more of a surprise if it had been any other way. It's not really the first time, that Cold Case brings up the subject of PPD, though in the episode "Glued" (1x12) the mother only was a suspect. Actually it reminded me a lot of this 1st season ep, they used even snow again - symbolizing the innocent? Nevertheless, the plot was still in many ways different. And they did a great job in showing how it effected the whole family.

Only one little thing I didn't like about the setup of story: the career-woman background. More precisely, I'm ambivalent about it, I like that they showed a woman doing career and family (and that her husband seemed to accept it mostly), but we're having some stupid discussion lately around here, and I so could picture some conservatives nod and mumble: see, that is what happens, when women want both. Grmpf, sure nothing that was intended, quite the opposite. But some people take everything to support their arguments. Geee, writing this I think, it angers me even more, that it bothers me b/c of some jerks still not getting it. Arg.

Back to this episode: The color scheme of the flashbacks was interesting, this sort of pastel color scheme (it looked to me more like teal sometimes on my screen than blue), noticed they used red in the scene between Molly and Roger and then Stella and Roger - guess they gave it some thought (yeah boxman, I see it this time ).

Well, and the personal stuff? Hm, so Lilly and Ray already knew each other as kids (I think it was quite clear, they were talking about the time when Lilly was 10) - explains some things.

Oh, and I'm not the only that noticed the tag Ray was wearing in hospital. Dunno why it catched my eye, mostly such details elude me. So, it's Ray Patrick...

[TVFan]

What I didn't get that Lilly knew Ray when she was 10 , why did she say that she took off for two weeks without knowing him, was he the same guy or a different?

Nice catch LII. I just rewatched that scene from "8 Years" where Lilly tells Sally all about Ray. She tells her that she only knew him 2 weeks when she took off with him and almost married him in Knoxville. Definitely a continuity goof. I like the new story better, though.

[myril]

tvfan said:

What I didn't get that Lilly knew Ray when she was 10 , why did she say that she took off for two weeks without knowing him, was he the same guy or a different?

Nice catch LII. I just rewatched that scene from "8 Years" where Lilly tells Sally all about Ray. She tells her that she only knew him 2 weeks when she took off with him and almost married him in Knoxville. Definitely a continuity goof. I like the new story better, though.

Or maybe Lilly didn't tell the truth to Sally? Actually wonder if she did in this episode to Molly, the thing with her mum locking them up for 2 days. I think Lilly uses some of her own stories adding some things, she thinks might trigger something, to make people talk more openly.

[TVFan]

Excellent point Myril. I forget that she doesn't always tell the truth with witnesses and suspects. Thanks for reminding me!

[r2k]

I think Lilly embellishes the truth a bit. Remember the pilot episode when she talked about having a mean drunk for husband to Jill's mother. Later in the episode when the mom tells Lilly, "I guess we both know what it's like to have a husband fail you." Lassing looks at her funny like, "Huh?" Perhaps there's some truth to the stories Lilly tells, but a good detective has to think on her feet and appeal to the suspect to come clean.

FYI: For those who have never seen the pilot, Lassing was Lilly's first partner. But I think most of you know that by now.

[boxman]

tvfan said:

Excellent point Myril. I forget that she doesn't always tell the truth with witnesses and suspects. ...

Nor with her boyfriends about keeping their pictures at her bed table. Heh. She has a problem talking about things that disturb her, not just in 4.01 "Rampage" with Joseph, but also as in trying to talk to Scotty about the past between her and Christina in "Wishing". She's also not hesitant to tell "white lies" as we know from the series premiere, like R2K says. So ironically, there *is* some "continuity" with the "discontinuity". I think we can conclude she lied to Sally in "8 Years", which prolly indicates that talking about Ray was rather emotional and difficult for her at that time. Interesting revelation.

[Naj]

So true, r2k. One of the things I loved about Season 1 Lilly. Couldn't tell if she was making up a story to get a confession. But as you say she does embellish at times.

I did get a chance to look at the last segment of this episode and Lilly at the grave didn't give any hint that she was mourning something from her past like even an abortion so it doesn't appear that Lilly may have had a baby at one time.

r2k said:

I think Lilly embellishes the truth a bit. Remember the pilot episode when she talked about having a mean drunk for husband to Jill's mother. Later in the episode when the mom tells Lilly, "I guess we both know what it's like to have a husband fail you." Lassing looks at her funny like, "Huh?" Perhaps there's some truth to the stories Lilly tells, but a good detective has to think on her feet and appeal to the suspect to come clean.

FYI: For those who have never seen the pilot, Lassing was Lilly's first partner. But I think most of you know that by now.

[koufax]

I think it would be completely out of character for Lilly to have had a child(considering how she has not come to grips with her dysfunctional family.) What I drew from that scene was how she looked at victims after the crime was solved. Because the victim was an infant , it would have been in bad taste to have the child looking at Lilly.

[boxman]

*gasp*
Wow, this episode needs to be thought of with some consideration of 2.04 "The House", which just re-aired on TNT. "The House" definitely lays down some hints about Ray, his motorcycle, a criminal past, and possibly heading north to raise a child.

[myril]

Interesting what and how much we like to conclude from facial expressions. A few thoughts:

It's making nearly everybody sad to think of a baby losing it's life. You don't have to be a mother or made that experience to feel empathy.

Wouldn't have Lilly talked a little different to Molly if she had the experience of losing a child herself? But she's throwing in her own childhood experience. Yeah, I know, it wouldn't be something anyone would like to talk about especially to a stranger, but we assumed often, Lilly is drawing from her own personal experience to find something to make a suspect talk, though embellshing it a bit. She don't have to mind giving something away about herself, because chances are, she might never have to deal much with these people again. And I think Lilly is always giving more away, when she talks alone to a suspect, anyone else noticed that before? (hm, might have to look into some eps, but she was quite often talking alone to suspects) On the other hand might have been a good "tactic" to appeal more to the motherly side, by sort of giving the view of the child, and not bond as someone knowing the experience as mother. But would be very calculating.

It's weird how something can trigger memories and feelings. Wouldn't say it would be totally out of character for Lilly to have (and have lost) a child, but if you grow up with a dysfunctional family, a family drama like this might shed a different light on your own past. For example making you muse eventually about what situation your own mum was in, seeing things from a different angle.

In short: Think there are more ways to read these scenes.

boxman What a coincidence that The House just reaired on TNT. First time we got hints about a motorcycle guy in Lilly's past, I think. Though what Lilly told Bobby might be only partly true. Still could be fun to look back again at the hints we got there.

@reverend Bizarre: think actually green is considered in our culture more as color of hope, a new beginning (not the cold green, the warm green of spring) blue is associated more with longing (as in the Blue Flower of German Romanticism), what some call hope as well though. Green signals life (and poison in some variations, so a threat to life), different shades of blue symbolise loyal, reliable, trustful, neutral, but also distance and cold and it can be associated with depression. And red is the color of emotion, passion,love - was used in 2 flashbacks. The blue in the flachback was bit pallid, blury (as were the whole flashbacks, unfocused camera). Hm, maybe I take a closer look on the color scheme of the flashbacks.

And snow - snow-white aka innocence, the untouched, but also snow has a touch of blue. In dream analyzising snow is associated with emotional problems, snow melting sets hidden feelings free, seeing snow can be sign of personal change, and maybe a time of reflection (white reflecting light, winter a time of withdrawl), wading through snow is fighting with feelings.

[sonny]

A good episode in my opinion, although I was fully prepared to get really emotional and cry over it which I didn't. A good case though and as always I loved the personal bits from Lilly. I'm still praying she doesn't screw things up with Joseph but it seems she's still a little hung up on the past and the support that Ray obviously gave her when things were rough for her.

Still a great season so far with very strong episodes. ;D ;D ;D

[Naj]

Just a friendly note that there are some good discussions happening in our Live Chat regarding the episodes that aren't necessarily discussed out here on the thread such as actual post partum depression/psychosis.


Maybe some of those in chat can bring these topics up for comment here and if not another reason to join in our chats.

[TVFan]

In the context of the final scene from this episode and then the scene with Bobby in The House, it does seem like Lilly may have lost a child (miscarried, still-born, or other). There just seems to be subtle hints to this throughout the series' history. Perhaps, it's nothing more than coincidences and misreadings. Or maybe, it's something that we'll learn more about further down the road. It is interesting either way, and it just goes to show how much we don't know about this fascinating character.

Wouldn't have Lilly talked a little different to Molly if she had the experience of losing a child herself?

This is what put the nail in the coffin on the losing a child possibility for me, myril. I thought that she would have used it as well, but then the ending scene had me reconsidering that final nail. I'm just not sure. It's possible that it's just too painful to use or that she wanted to speak from the child's perspective as you mentioned.

So ironically, there *is* some "continuity" with the "discontinuity". I think we can conclude she lied to Sally in "8 Years", which prolly indicates that talking about Ray was rather emotional and difficult for her at that time. Interesting revelation.

This is so true, boxman. Interestingly enough, the show can actually get away with continuity errors because of this "Lilly lies" history. No other show could pull this off. I agree, though, that Lilly most likely lied to Sally about only knowing Ray 2 weeks when she rode off with him.

I think that milkshake shot during the closing montage sort of affirmed by "undecided" status when it comes to Joseph and Ray. It was so symbolic and such a caring gesture. To me, it showed how deep Lilly's feelings run for Ray. I don't think that she has these sort of feelings for Joseph, at least not yet. It must be very confusing to have him here at the exact moment when Joseph came on too strong. Suddenly, the other option is probably looking a lot better than it may have in the past. These two have a kind of real, star-crossed quality to their relationship. I have no doubt that they care deeply for each other, but their different lifestyles keep them from being with each other. There's a sadness to that situation because you have to wonder if Lilly would ultimately be happiest with Ray, but it just isn't possible. Regardless, I'm very excited to see how this conflict plays out this season.

[boxman]

myril said:

And snow - snow-white aka innocence, the untouched, but also snow has a touch of blue. In dream analyzising snow is associated with emotional problems, snow melting sets hidden feelings free, seeing snow can be sign of personal change, and maybe a time of reflection (white reflecting light, winter a time of withdrawl), wading through snow is fighting with feelings.

Interesting... Now are these German/European views of snow?? I'm just curious because these interpretations are new to me. The Reverend and I were talking about snow a few episodes ago. In Japanese symbology, the colour white is associated with death. As a result, snowing scenes (such as the swordfight between Uma Thurman & Lucy Liu in "Kill Bill 2") usually involve death or some kind of loss. In the States, white is usually innocence, like you mention here. Quite likely because of Christmas and other "good" winter holidays. It was still kinda shocking for me to see the snow scene in this episode. I probably should've predict it, but it was unexpected...

sonny said:

... it seems she's still a little hung up on the past and the support that Ray obviously gave her when things were rough for her....

Yeah! Wow, did that throw me for a spin! More later when I have time to make a lengthy post...

tvfan said:

In the context of the final scene from this episode and then the scene with Bobby in The House, it does seem like Lilly may have lost a child (miscarried, still-born, or other). There just seems to be subtle hints to this throughout the series' history.

Did anyone notice that Kat kinda gave a strange twitch when it was mentioned that Iris was premature? Was this a subtle hint of some sort??

tvfan said:

...Interestingly enough, the show can actually get away with continuity errors because of this "Lilly lies" history. No other show could pull this off. I agree, though, that Lilly most likely lied to Sally about only knowing Ray 2 weeks when she rode off with him.

Ahh... Now you just made me remember something... Back in "8 Years", IIRC Lilly told Sally that she met Ray at a bar when she was 19. Well, Pennsylvania's drinking age was 21 since 1984! I thought that was a continuity error, since Lilly's too young to have been in a bar legally when she was 19! I brushed it off at that time, thinking that some Hollywood writer didn't do their homework and was being sloppy... (Ha ha ha... It's funny to think about today, since Meredith Stiehm wrote "8 Years". It was my first Cold Case episode, and I didn't know the show's creator wrote the story. Duh! ) But with this new info on Ray, that story Lilly told Sally about meeting Ray in a bar when she was nineteen *does* seem like it was made-up! How about that??