Episode 3.14: Dog Day Afternoons

[jazzyb]

This has certainly been a lively debate; who needs a season finale? Just one observation about the "what if" syndrome. I think whatever perception we have about Lilly's actions/reactions depends on what aspect of her character we personally identify with or find most plausible in the context of the show. I am, for better or worse, very pragmatic and that of course is the part of Lilly's character I find appealing. Pragmatic me would not after 15+ years invite some yahoo back into my life for a one-time fling or in some fading hope try to re-kindle an old flame. We had our chance, it didn't pan out -- let's move on! Even if he (or she as the case may be) rocked my world back then, time didn't stand still. I've probably upgraded to a newer (and better) model by this time. Now of course, I've never had my sister sleep with my fiance and/or co-worker, been stalked by a serial-killer, have never shot and killed anyone, or any of the other hundred and one things that Lilly Rush has experienced. So maybe my tune would change if I were truly in her shoes. McRay would seem like a breath of fresh air or least worth a ride on his bike.

[Disasterfreak]

Yes, exactly, jazzyb! Geez, you put nice words to what was going through my brain. Thanks.

EDIT: Except the McRay part. I honestly don't think I'd ever try that. But who knows? It's been known to happen before, just not at her age.

[longislanditalian2]

That same was going through my mind too, Coinsidence??

[myril]

jazzyb said:

This has certainly been a lively debate; who needs a season finale? Just one observation about the "what if" syndrome. I think whatever perception we have about Lilly's actions/reactions depends on what aspect of her character we personally identify with or find most plausible in the context of the show.

You have a really good point there, jazzyb. Don't want to scare anyone, but in this debate I think I learnt already more about some people than I could have reading their biographies. Don't worry, I really mean this in a positive way and I'm giving much away as well.

Being a single working woman in her mid thirties with some past for sure influences the way I percieve the story. Haha, Disasterfreak, I feel like behaving like a teenager at times. Sometimes it bothers me and sometimes I don't care. And I'm absolutely not sure what would happen, if my big first love would suddenly again cross my way - oh well, he is happily married, so quite possible nothing would happen. lol But picturing it, I can see it like that, a smile, a nod and off we go. And despite the fact that we haven't talked with each other for more than a decade, I do basically know what he is doing at the moment, so there would be first no need to talk. Actually, being a bit stuffed with other peoples problems and some of my own, I would appriciate to not talk about some things first and just have for a few hours a good time - whatever that would mean.

Though it makes a lot of sense to me, how the situation develops in this episode, I'm still not happy that they set up this storyline in the first place. Only hope they don't make a long time drama of it.

[frenchfan]

I completely agree with you Miryl and Jazzib. It is obvious that our personal stories explain our way of seeing the things. I think besides that the interest that I have for this series also comes from there. I find that this show obliges us to make a kind of introspection and returns us to our own experiments, fears, doubts, errors, joys... Very interesting and enriching for me.

[frenchfan]

Myril and Jazzyb sorry for the bad orthography

[longislanditalian2]

frenchfan said:

I completely agree with you Miryl and Jazzib. It is obvious that our personal stories explain our way of seeing the things. I think besides that the interest that I have for this series also comes from there. I find that this show obliges us to make a kind of introspection and returns us to our own experiments, fears, doubts, errors, joys... Very interesting and enriching for me.

well said Frenchfan. As for me I haven't had my first love yet, i'm still looking for the right guy. But it is true about what eurache was saying too ..

[boxman]

disasterfreak said:

Hmm.... Ray seemed sweet enough, but hardly like a guy capable of very deep feelings.

Even though I'm holding out that the writer's have more to reveal about Ray, I definitely agree with you, Disasterfreak.

I find it a bit more than unusual how many people here are trying justify Lilly's actions....and with all that effort, only a few are putting effort to understand Ray's inner character and personal values.

Irishkale? Byrdman? Why don't you guys chime in with your two cents about this dude?? Which one of your buddies does Ray remind you of?? We need more male perspective here.

Anyway, we all agree that Lilly is troubled with her past, correct? We all think she can do better if she had someone in her life that can help her calmly reflect upon her life, think through her problems, see things in new ways, and grow from her past, right? Like Disasterfreak's observation above, I think its much more reasonable to focus on measuring up Ray's character, intellegence, and experience to see if he has what it takes to help Lilly in this way, rather than to put much more effort into justifying Lilly's actions.

Now don't get me wrong, I liked hearing everyone's opinion here; and Eurache, you shared a very interesting and personal story that was very touching and gave a unique perspective of things. Thank you.

The way I look at it, just because Ray's a man in Lilly's life doesn't naturally gift him with healing powers. He has to have the innate social, psychological, and intellectual skills to be able to do this for her; and c'mon people, y'all are old enough to know that not every guy is gifted with this kind of ability....

With all this said, it's too bad the writers decided to not give us much of a bone to chew on, and what they did reveal the next day in the interrogation room wasn't very impressive to reflect about....

[TVFan]

Excellent points boxman! I guess we're all dwelling on Lilly because she's our favorite character and we know so little about Ray (which, is your point exactly). Honestly, as it was presented to us, I don't think that Ray is someone who can help Lilly along. Now, if they give us more on him, then maybe I'd see that he could. It's just so hard to discuss because we really didn't get much on him. This, again, is why I feel they need to revisit the storyline. There are far too many gaping holes to close before I get 100% onboard with Lilly's decision. I do think that the ending shot with Lilly letting Ray in certainly left the door open for future encounters (hopefully of the relationship variety ).

[boxman]

Hey, TVFan, I just remembered that you're from the South. Are you very familiar with "Gone With The Wind"?? Other than tying in to the episode's southern theme, are there any correlations between this episode and the movie? If I understand it correctly, Rhett Butler was sort of a bad-boy type, wasn't he?? Do you see any parallels between Rhett Butler's line, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a d@mn", and the way Lilly was throwing Ray out of her life in the interrogation room??

---

Oh, and I just saw "Lover's Lane" last night. There was a lot of speculation in that thread about Lilly being pregnant either at that time or maybe before. Any chances that Lilly and Ray may have terminated a pregnancy?? That would certainly add a different twist to their story that I was previously unaware of, being a new viewer to the show.

[Disasterfreak]

Dammit, I had written out a really long, detailed reply and my @#%@# computer froze and I lost it. Grrrr...

Anyway, what I was saying is, I fully agree that our own personalities and experiences influence the way we perceive plots and characters, and that being the case, I don't know if there's any point in me continuing in this debate. It's fun, true--but I can't really hope to convince anyone nor am I about to let myself be convinced. We just all see things too differently. I respect everyone's POV--obviously those of you who have experienced love at first sight and rekindling of old relationships lost in time will feel very akin to Lilly atm. Me, I'm more like Jazzyb, too pragmatic and cynical for my own good probably, so I can't really empathize with Lilly on this whole McRay deal, and probably never will. As Sonny said in another thread, all she seems like is an easy lay, a needy girl going after someone she decided wasn't good enough long ago. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, there are probably others aspects there that I'm not getting because it would take "experiencing" it to understand. I've fallen in love--yes. But if one of these guys should show up nowadays, I wouldn't go running after him. We'd talk maybe, but as Jazzyb said, it's all water under the bridge, over and past.

[sonny]

I see your point DF and I think I've almost had enough of trying to analyse what Lilly is feeling at the moment. I'll finish with one point though in response to the 'running after him bit.' It really does depend on the circumstances in which they parted all those years ago that may play a factor in why she is so smitten with him still.
Until I see or here more about their relationship, which gives clearer understanding to the whole thing, I think I'm done. ;D ;D

[Tati]

So, I just watched it. I tried my best not to be influenced by the comments I read here. Sorry if I sound a little repetitive in my comments.

Let’s see:

The case: This may sound harsh, but I thought Roween was a little stupid. She knew she was being fooled! I could understand that she would not want to call the police (for the risk of the thieves one day coming back to get her), but at least she could’ve stayed quiet, not try to do any little tricks. Or just locked herself in the bathroom until the whole thing was over. Also, I couldn’t really buy her as such a desperate spinster. She seemed such a good girl, happy with herself even though she was single and lonely. The whole thing of her collaborating with the robbery seemed forced (considering she wasn’t threatened, blackmailed or anything to get in). I know this is TV and TV is usually a bit forced and unrealistic, but I didn’t like this case very much.

MC Man and Lilly: First, OMG how cute is Ray?!?! That guy is one of the greatest eye-candy I’ve seen on TV lately. Now, on to the storyline. I thought it was very off-character of Lilly, but I didn’t hate the whole thing as much as DF did.
I’ll go scene by scene on this. At that first one, when she said that if Ray showed up they should tell him she was dead, she was just playing uninterested. The guys didn’t even know anything about the “motorcycle dude” and they were already mocking her. She couldn’t let them into the fact that she was “with” the guy or they would never put the subject to rest. She faked that whole reaction, but until them she was very in-character, in my opinion.

Then late that night (I assume it was she same night), she was leaving. Scotty said good-bye and began to walk away but Lilly stuck around. She was waiting for Ray. It was clear in her eyes that she desperately wanted Scotty to leave so he wouldn’t see him. No luck. Then she kept playing uninterested but that didn’t work since Scotty saw her getting on Ray’s motorcycle and leaving.

Next morning, Ray shows up at the office. That certainly wasn’t on Lilly’s plans. I think that if there was a moment when she believed things could still work out between her and Ray, those minutes in the interrogation room made her see there could never be a future there. It was so clear how different they were. So, this is what we have: Lilly gets in touch with Ray, they meet and sleep together. That’s not the Lilly I’ve known for the past 2 1/2 years. Many people here have posted the (very valid) arguments that after the events of The Woods, Lilly is reconsidering how she lives her life, how she relates to people, and possibly wondering how things could’ve been if she had gotten together with Ray or made different choices in her life. That could be all true but one thing is to wonder “what if....?” the other is actually acting on that. Of course we all wonder how different our lives could be if we made a different choice in a certain point of our past. But we don’t go all doing stuff to make that situation come back to us. I know Lilly’s situation is not that serious, she was just having fun with the guy – but that’s not Lilly. It’s hard to put into better words than “it’s just not her”. Lilly is not the kind of gal that likes to dig on and relive her past, whether good or not, at least that’s the impression I always had. I’m not saying that burying unresolved stuff is the best way, but that’s Lilly’s way (I think the whole Christina situation shows that).

Still, she had a crazy moment and called the guy to have some fun. OK. I was willing to buy it IF she hadn’t opened her door to him in the last scene. When they were together at the interrogation room, Lilly seemed to have an insightful moment, when she realized that no matter how much fun they had together, they were just not right for each other. And that it was a mistake to insist on something like that. That was after he asks her to ditch work and go ride with him. I thought her eyes had the saddest look, and she was thinking something like “There’s no way. He’s still Ray and I’m still myself, and he doesn’t understand me.” Then he would come to her again in the end and she wouldn’t open the door for him. Then the whole storyline would’ve made sense and if would’ve offered Lilly a chance to shut a door that was left half-open on her past. But then she let him in and that screwed everything.

My solace rests on the belief that we won’t see Ray again. Too bad for my eyes, but better for Lilly and the show.

[ewka]

I got lost in a debate, must write it all from the beginning again ;]

About me friend - yeah, she's completely different now (she was a 10 years old girl and now she looks like uuu, 20?), she seems to be more Italian than Pole.

[frenchfan]

sonny said:

I'll finish with one point though in response to the 'running after him bit.' It really does depend on the circumstances in which they parted all those years ago that may play a factor in why she is so smitten with him still.
Until I see or here more about their relationship, which gives clearer understanding to the whole thing, I think I'm done. ;D ;D

I completely agree with you Sonny. I re-examined the episode 2.4 in which Lilly speaks about Ray, the man that she wanted to marry, with which she wanted a child... A rupture which made her lose the smile and to involve her resignation says Lilly. I wish that the end of the season enable us to better understand this history and the desire that have Lilly to see Ray again.

[longislanditalian2]

I think the reason why scotty stuck around was b/c he just wanted to see wa type of guy he was , I think he's a little protective of lilly. When lilly saw him like Tati said she really wanted to see him i wasn't expected that they sleep together ,even i was shocked this isn't Lilly at all. I think ray knew that lilly had changed , but i think a part of lilly still yearned to go for a ride . Ray just wanted to pick up the relationship from the past, which is something that lilly might not want to do , but how well do we really honestly know lilly? She can say on thing and her face could say another , if the writers showed a little what happened after she got on the bike , I think we all understand why they both feel different towards each other. At least showed them later at night talking about the past , them kissing . It was good work on the writers part, but left us wondered what did they do when ray coem back to her house at the end? Did they sit and talk or did lilly invite him over for dinner and movie ?? ?

I hope the writers don't leave at just this

[boxman]

For a long time, I couldn't figure out what didn't sit right with me about the idea that Lilly and Ray had planned in advance to meet after work. I just realized that Lilly is wearing that pink-lined overcoat that she normally wears, when Ray shows up at Philly PD. Lilly should know that a coat isn't the best thing to wear to meet with Ray. Obviously, he's going to be on a motorcycle, and a long coat like that will be flapping in the wind, picking up road dirt and bugs, and possibly get chewed up by the rear tires. Having been a passenger many times before, she'd likely still remember to wear a shorter, waist-length jacket if the whole thing was planned in advance. Unless, of course, this was an oversight by the wardrobe department....

---

ewka said:

About me friend - yeah, she's completely different now (she was a 10 years old girl and now she looks like uuu, 20?), she seems to be more Italian than Pole.

Isn't she still essentially the same person you knew at ten, plus the six years she was away in Italy? So to understand who she is now, all you need to do is ask about the past six years, since you already knew her at ten, correct?

When I see friends I haven't seen in many years, I want to ask how is their work, their love live, how is the health of their parents, how is their brothers and sisters, and so forth. As adults, these things are more serious: Decisions about work affect you for decades, boyfriend/girlfriend relationships lead to marriage and kids, parents that were once young and took us to the shopping mall now are old and getting poor in health, brothers and sisters that were teenagers have now graduated from college--some are even married!

So this is why I think people--especially adults--should talk more when they see each other after years and only have a short time together, not less like you would have with your friend. This is what it appears that Lilly and Ray have done--talk very little--so it is unusual to me. They have acted a lot more like teenagers, not like adults.

[TVFan]

First of all, WORD to everything you wrote Tati. You really nailed the reason why I'm so conflicted with the whole "relationship." I totally could have bought that Lilly needed to close this chapter in her life and the few moments in the interrogation room did that for her for all the reason Tati beautifully stated. But then, we got that extra scene on her porch that threw me off. That scene made it look like there was more there than just the hooking up factor. It also left the door open instead of shutting it, so I'm all discombobulated!

boxman - I'm not a true Southerner. I'm actually a transplant from the North (Connecticut). I've seen Gone with the Wind, but only once and it was several years ago. All of this is to say that unfortunately, I'm not too familiar with it. I didn't see any parallels, but that doesn't mean anything.

[boxman]

tatiana said:

My solace rests on the belief that we won’t see Ray again. Too bad for my eyes, but better for Lilly and the show.

Wow! Sacrificing your eyes for the sake of the show! What a dedicated fan!

[longislanditalian2]

Good point boxman,. they did act like teenagers, but half of adults act like that .. Maybe it was an buried impulse that lilly had to unleash. She works all the time , a little bike ride isn't going to hurt.