Episode 19: Late Returns

[longislanditalian2]

Michelle, I totally agree with you about this. Lilly does give her heart and soul into a relationship maybe it was Kite that had himself all wrong about who she was .

[TVFan]

I think you raise some very valid points boxman. The one thing I will say is, the reason Kite didn't just score with other woman and fixated on Lilly has to do with the fact that he wanted her. She was a challenge, but he was also attracted to her. It's not that I don't think that Kite cared about her - I do, it's the fact that he was not very committed to making things work with her. That alone isn't a big deal, except that he seemed to sort of trap her into committing to him in this episode with that smooth ultimatum. Lilly would have been fine cutting her losses and moving on at that point, but he convinced her that he wanted more from her. I'm arguing that the "more" part was to get her between the sheets. Of course, we're not taking the "X" factor into account here: Josh Hopkins got another show and left CC abruptly (according to InsideR), so Meredith and co. were left with a quick resolution to write him out of the show (the same way that the actor who portrayed the Defunct Detective was written out quickly). From what InsideR has said, Kite was suppose to play a continued role in Lilly's life in S2, but the actor's new gig squashed that and the break-up was written. So, I guess we'll never know what could have been...

[boxman]

michelle said:

He split knowing that relationships aren't very important to Lilly.

I have to disagree with that statement. I think relationships are immensely important to Lilly, especially given her personal history in her early relationship with her mother, and seeing her mother's behavior in relationships. I think it would be more accurate to say that Lilly needs to really know someone before deeming them worthy of a place in her life. After all, she and Kite had really only started. Not that I think her behavior was right (I posted a rant about that in the Lover's Lane thread), but the way I understand Lilly, if she chooses someone with whom to be in a relationship, she will give everything in her heart and soul to it.

Now c'mon, Michelle. How many people enter a relationship without putting their heart and soul into it?? Everyone does, this is not something that's unique to Lilly.... Except, I hate to say this, but I don't even agree with you here....

Take a look again at 3.14 "Dog Day Afternoons". In that episode, we meet Ray, a guy that Lilly was once about to marry. He's about the closest person to Lilly we know about. Even years after they separate, she has a picture of them together that she reminisces over in 3.11 "8 Years". So in "Dog Day Afternoons", Lilly and Ray spend a whole night together--and what?? Lilly doesn't even know the next morning that he has another night in town. Did they even talk to each other the night before?? How long does someone need to know Lilly before she simply asks,"So, how long are you in town for?" In the interrogation room, Ray is about to lose Lilly's attention--and what happens?? The discussion turns back to *work*. Ray tells Lilly that he's the Boss of the cycle repair shop; it's the reason why he came by Philly, to tell her so. So again, even Ray knows that he can't connect with Lilly without talking about work and impressing her that he's as career-oriented as she is! Even Ray knows Work is more important than Relationships to Lilly. He even complimented her for becoming a 'murder cop' to appease her that he recognizes the efforts she puts into her career. It's the same thing we see with Kite. They both know that to get to Lilly's heart--heck, just to get Lilly's attention--they have to wrestle with her love for Work. Ray even suggested that she take leave for that day. It's just like what Kite had to do to get that first date with her: Convince Lilly to put work aside for a moment. Do women who value relationships all act this way??

My criticism even extends to Lilly's relationships with people in general. In 2.15 "Wishing", Scotty and Lilly have a moment during work where they're waiting in the cemetary. Scotty wants to use this moment to talk about his actions with Christina, to try and repair the damage he caused between him and Lilly. But does she even give him a chance to have his say?? No, she rather keep it a distant "working relationship" between her and Scotty. How does one "value relationships" on one hand, and not be able to listen or to forgive on the other?? Listening and forgiving are both important aspects of building and maintaining relationships.

In 3.19 "Beautiful Little Fool", we finally meet Lilly's mom. Yes, I can understand Lilly's animosity towards Ellen Rush. But if relationships really are important to Lilly, why didn't she put any effort at finding Christina for her mom?? She didn't need to do it for herself. As an experienced detective, Lilly certainly has the knowledge and connections to get some kind of results better than you or I can as lay people. From 2.20 "Kensington", we know that Lilly knows the name of an NYPD cop that's on Christina's case. How hard would it have been for Lilly to contact him to see what's the latest info he has on Christina?? So do you get my point here?? Lilly doesn't need to like neither Ellen nor Christina. But if Lilly truly understands and values Relationships, she'd understand how important it was to Ellen that Christina knew of and attended her mom's wedding. Being in a relationship means making sacrifices and dealing with situations that don't necessarily please yourself--because you have understanding. Lilly's relationship with Ellen and Christina is bonded by blood. Why couldn't she sacrifice a little of her anger towards both, because she understands how important it was to her mom to find Christina for an important event??

We know that Lilly is Philly's first female homicide detective. So what does that make Kat?? Not the second, of course because of "Josie chippy", but Kat definitely also has to deal with the challenges of being one of the few females in a male-dominated occupation. Has there ever been a scene in Season Three where the two really bonded?? Why hasn't Lilly said something simple to Kat like, "Hey girl, so you got here from Narcotics, huh? Welcome to Homicide. You know, there's a lot of good places to eat here in town. Wanna go out for lunch?? And we can talk about what you have to go thru in dealing with the men here at Philly PD headquarters...." We've talked about mentor-protege relationships here on this board. Why doesn't Lilly form one with Kat?? Lilly's been a homicide detective for almost eight years--she has enough experience under her belt to take Kat under her wing. Especially if she's going to be distancing herself from Scotty...

[Kat, on the other hand, did a rather decent thing in "Joseph" to reach out and be friends with Lilly. Kat hears a rumour about Lilly keeping victim's photos at her bedside. The rumour was meant to be derogatory towards Lil; but instead of keeping the talk behind Lilly's back, Kat asked Lilly about it to let her explain this unusual behavior. To me, this is an excellent example of someone who values relationships and does something proactive about it to build and maintain them.]

The more we talk about this, the more I'm beginning to realize that Ellen not only passed to Lilly the lack of skills to form solid relationships, but Ellen also passed on to Lilly the quality of being addicted. Lilly really is like Dr Bowen in 3.22 "The River". Driven by an alcoholic parent, both Lilly and Dr. Bowen want to find success in life. Dr Bowen eventually succumbed to an addiction to Poker. And Lilly?? She's succumbed to an addiction to Work. Even Joseph called her on that--"workaholic" is the exact word he used to describe her. (And look at that scene in "Joseph".... Look at Lilly's startled face when Joseph asks that...) Now Lilly might want to be in a relationship, and she might want to be willing to put everything she has into one. But like Dr Bowen, Lilly's addiction (to Work, in Lilly's case) is interfering with her ability to connect, form, and maintain lasting social relationships. She uses Work as a reason to not listen, to not have the time to forgive, to not attend family events (thank God she succumbed and went to her mom's wedding, though), to not date, and to not make time to bond with other women in her profession. In her heart, Lilly might want to form stronger relationships with others, but her actions and addiction to work surely give a lot of evidence that she's not able to do so.

But does all this leave me disappointed?? No. It just makes me really wonder what kind of impact a guy like Joseph will have on Lilly... Especially with him being an addictions councillor, and a guy that figured her out in one minute!

tvfan said:

...Of course, we're not taking the "X" factor into account here: Josh Hopkins got another show and left CC abruptly (according to InsideR), so Meredith and co. were left with a quick resolution to write him out of the show (the same way that the actor who portrayed the Defunct Detective was written out quickly). From what InsideR has said, Kite was suppose to play a continued role in Lilly's life in S2, but the actor's new gig squashed that and the break-up was written. So, I guess we'll never know what could have been...

Yeah. We never knew how this relationship could have blossomed... what a tragedy!!

[frenchfan]

boxman said:

How many people enter a relationship without putting their heart and soul into it??

so much boxman, so much.


As usual, boxman, your reflexion is very interesting. But if you describe in a pragmatic and analytical way the behavior of lilly, you do not analyze the reasons which one results in being closed with the others, even if with deepest of her and I agree with Michelle on this point, she wants to give each other body and heart in a relation. But can she?
Yes, she is useful of her work like shield. She creates a wall around her, but why?
It is so easy to erase her past, she was built around the wounds and of the sufferings.
I find admirable that she manages to still speak with her mother, that she goes to her marriage. This mother who gives her lessons on happiness. I find personally that she with a capacity with immense forgiveness. This mother who was unable of love.
About the alcoholism of her mother, lilly had to feel, impotence, loneliness, anger, dislike...
With regard to her sister, it’s a little similar. she tried to forgive her, but forgiveness is so fragile. I know somebody that the husband left to leave with the mother what caused the suicide of the father. How you think that this person builds herself today. She is in the incapacity to create a stable relation with the other. Even if she tests.
As for Scotty, lilly tried to help him at the time of the suicide of Elisa, but he closed the door, he preferred christina. And he lied on this relation. The lie and treason are two things which reason in a particular way at Lilly. And she is hard, intransigent, proud. With my direction, the only person with whom it really has creates bonds it is Stillman, because she trusts him, she has a very strong attachment for him.

Then I agree Boxman, Lilly is unable for the moment to open her heart, she hides behind her work to avoid any emotional implication with the others. But she suffers from this situtation.
And if I did not see the Joseph episode yet I wait impatiently to see the consequences of this meeting on Lilly.

[michelle]

Frenchfan

[longislanditalian2]

Very interesting the way you put it Boxman,

I think the real reason why Lilly surrounds herself with her job is because many she was abused as a child we already know she has a 49 report filied when she was 10. Maybe her job is her wall to prevent her from letting those feelings bubble to the surface. Ellen didn't seem like the type of mother who would hold and talk to her child, she seemed distant both on an emotional and physical level. So everytime Lilly's in a relationship she builds up those walls around her, blocking her true feelings.

Maybe Lilly will open up to Joseph since he seems to grow up in a similar fashion. Yes she has a lot of emotional problems to work out, it seems to stem from her childhood. Maybe her job is the only thing that will keep her emotional stable. I have a feeling that Lilly's does want someone to comfort her and not leave her alone; maybe something went on with her and Ray a long time ago?

[TVFan]

Wow boxman! That's very impressive. I think you really delved into the heart of what keeps Lilly from being in any sort of successful relationship. Are you a psychologist? Your point about Kat reaching out with the pictures thing (and then later when she brings Joseph to the jail and motions for Lilly to go talk to him) was so valid.

[boxman]

frenchfan said:

...And if I did not see the Joseph episode yet I wait impatiently to see the consequences of this meeting on Lilly.

I hope you get to see "Joseph" soon, FrenchFan!! Because the funny thing is that even though I'm defending Kite... I'd like to see Lilly together with Joseph a whole lot more!

tvfan said:

Wow boxman! That's very impressive. I think you really delved into the heart of what keeps Lilly from being in any sort of successful relationship. Are you a psychologist? Your point about Kat reaching out with the pictures thing (and then later when she brings Joseph to the jail and motions for Lilly to go talk to him) was so valid.

Well, no. I'm not a psychologist. (Though I'll take that comment as a compliment. ) I've had my own problems with alcohol abuse while in my twenties, so this personal experience does influence my understanding and view of the show. In "3.23 Joseph", there's a scene where Crystal yells out, "Denial! Been there! Done that!", and the other scene where Joseph says to Lilly, "What are you, a workaholic, detective?" In both instances, it's individuals that have gone through something and are able to recognize it in others... But even if one hasn't had problems with drugs or alcohol, at this point in the series, anyone watching the show should realize what damage addiction does to the addict and the people around them. There were so many episodes that had characters that were either drunks, drug addicts, and gambling addicts too. And not just static, cardboard characters--this show portrayed many people on the decline, living "lives of quiet desperation". So even without personal experience, is it really that difficult to figure that the show's emphasis on addiction might have some meaning behind it?? That Lilly's addiction to work is her crux--the reason for her angst and the imbalance between her professional and leisure life?? Again, this is why I find it very interesting that they paired Lilly with a guy like Joseph at the end of Season Three. I can't wait to see what happens next.

[eurache]

RE-AIRING JANUARY 22ND, 2008

[eurache]

REPEAT ON TNT - JUNE 18, 2008 (2:30AM)

[Bee]

I saw this episode recently, and I liked it (I still can't get over how hilariously Lilly said, "Maybe Abby wanted her favourite guy all to herself,") although I noticed something about Abby and David's stories: Abby said, "what I did when we were young", which implies that she abused David, but David says "you don't know about Abby and me" and "Abby and I became very close", which implied that it was consensual. So what happened? Was it abuse, and David just didn't want to remember it that way, or was it consensual and Abby just felt responsible because she was older?

[eduardodelroice]

Dec 15, 2008 2:27:50 GMT -5 Bee said:

I saw this episode recently, and I liked it (I still can't get over how hilariously Lilly said, "Maybe Abby wanted her favourite guy all to herself,") although I noticed something about Abby and David's stories: Abby said, "what I did when we were young", which implies that she abused David, but David says "you don't know about Abby and me" and "Abby and I became very close", which implied that it was consensual. So what happened? Was it abuse, and David just didn't want to remember it that way, or was it consensual and Abby just felt responsible because she was older?

I think writers left it to our imagination since It is a taboo theme. I also think It was consensual

[myril]

Dec 15, 2008 2:27:50 GMT -5 Bee said:

I saw this episode recently, and I liked it (I still can't get over how hilariously Lilly said, "Maybe Abby wanted her favourite guy all to herself,") although I noticed something about Abby and David's stories: Abby said, "what I did when we were young", which implies that she abused David, but David says "you don't know about Abby and me" and "Abby and I became very close", which implied that it was consensual. So what happened? Was it abuse, and David just didn't want to remember it that way, or was it consensual and Abby just felt responsible because she was older?

Hard to tell how it started. The story stays vague about this, about what happened actually between Abby and David. Think in this case it is pretty much a matter of point of view. For sure Abby would do everything to protect her little brother and his career, she is devoted to him. If that means to let it look like abuse, she would do that, not matter if it was or not. The two are probably sort of of mutual co-dependent (might be a hint, that they actually had quite a bad childhood), David maybe more than Abby though.

I would say. it was consensual. That's an opinion, based on an intuitive reaction to how they acted the story out, legally it might be never possible to really clear that up (and I make that distinction, because one thing is, what we think about it, feel about it, and eventually how we would morally judge about it, quite another thing is the legal side of such cases).

[Bee]

Thank you for your responses, guys!

Hard to tell how it started. The story stays vague about this, about what happened actually between Abby and David. Think in this case it is pretty much a matter of point of view. For sure Abby would do everything to protect her little brother and his career, she is devoted to him. If that means to let it look like abuse, she would do that, not matter if it was or not. The two are probably sort of of mutual co-dependent (might be a hint, that they actually had quite a bad childhood), David maybe more than Abby though.

Yeah, that makes sense. Sorry to keep pressing it, though: but when said the "when we were young" part, it flashed back to the younger Abby and she looked genuinely sorry and regretful, as if she felt terrible for what she did. What do you think?

I agree with what you said about them being co-dependent. Just a quick question that is more a matter of opinion: when, just before killing Veronica, David experiences lots of "flashes" of Abby. Now, I wasn't sure which way to interpret this. Did it show that he viewed their relationship as a "special" kind of love (ick), which meant that he thought leaving with her and forgetting all about Abby was the ultimate betrayal, and, he loved her in their own warped way? Or was it because she, as the abuser, held power over him? Sorry to keep pressing, I just wondered what you thought.

[myril]

It's okay, Bee, it's great to have a talk about a case.

Abby looked somewhat remorseful in that scene, agreed. Seeing the consequences especially now for her brother (public career with a skeleton in the closet, doesn't work good, people are attacked for lesser things) she really might regret. Think her prime motive was to cover up the past and clean up what ever gets in Davids way in the present, not to keep David for herself. Abby is smart and seems to be fairly in control of her feelings.

David thought of Abby and their relation, when it seemed to get serious with another woman. Does that mean, he saw his relation with Abby as something special? Yes. Does that exclude abuse? No. It can be very weird how people remember something. Abby had some special power over David, he trusted her absolutely, and he relyed on her. He was quite lost, unsure what to do, when Lilly and Scotty confronted him with Abby's confession. Scotty was right, he was close to spill it out looking for relief. That doesn't tell though, how true his feelings for his sister had been and are. Sometimes you can't tell, if a love is freely given or kinda forced or manipulated, the people involved might never know for themselves, some relations can give you a headache. Never had the impression, that David though blamed his sister or felt repelled of her by now. They had something special, something others, outsider couldn't understand. I doubt the two would have been still so close after all these years, if it hadn't at least grown into something consensual. So, yes, I think he loved her in their own warped way.

What I wonder: what story Abby (and David) would tell the public. Maybe it would be no subject in court if pleading guilty, but David is a person of public interest, of course someone would ask questions, no matter what. There is always an ambitious journalist looking for a big story, sex and crimes sell best.

[Bee]

I fully agree with you, Myril: as much as he seemed to "love" her, the way he depended on her could either mean love or abuse. It's near-impossible to tell, but she definitely didn't have some kind of "power" over him. David still seemed very lost, and I have to agree that I don't think they would have remained so close...although, I must say that in some of the flashbacks, it seemed like Abby was the one who began most of the physical contact (in a normal way, that is, like when she was tweaking his collar or adjusting his badge), it was like she was trying to remind David who was in control, and that was what came back to him when he was with Veronica on the stairwell: Abby was always the one in control.

What I wonder: what story Abby (and David) would tell the public. Maybe it would be no subject in court if pleading guilty, but David is a person of public interest, of course someone would ask questions, no matter what. There is always an ambitious journalist looking for a big story, sex and crimes sell best.

I wonder, indeed! I think maybe, if a journalist started digging and found out about the Abby/David story, then they'd try to put it off as long as possible, saying that whatever evidence was faked/illegal; again, they'd probably pay the journalist off with as much money as they could afford, the way they paid off the man who found them when they were teenagers. However, if the journalist was dead set on going to the press, there was no way to avoid it, they'd go to court and claim that it was agains the law. If that still didn't work, I would imagine that Abby would put up the "I did it; it was my fault" story that she gives to the detectives. If worst came to worst, she'd want to protect her brother, even if it meant throwing herself onto the gallows.

[coldcasefan2009]

Again a rerun gets airtime edits, either that or they drifted in this episode. what about the guy apparently shot in the car at the very beginning? what happened and who did that? they so totally concentrated on the girl and left that earlier portion a mystery!

about the 'killer', i don't think you can arrest someone for 'pushing or shoving', he obviously meant to push her back, not throw her down the stairs, and even more so never intended to hurt her at all. her death was a freak accident, a tragic after-effect, no way anyone can be tried nor convicted of murder from an accident like that. so the fact he didn't get arrested made sense.

[longislanditalian2]

That guy was Vanessa's father, he was the reason why they had reopened her case. We did find out from her mother who he was , that was already been solved before Abby Lake went to Jail at the end.

[eduardodelroice]

Jan 12, 2009 15:00:22 GMT -5 coldcasefan2009 said:

Again a rerun gets airtime edits, either that or they drifted in this episode. what about the guy apparently shot in the car at the very beginning? what happened and who did that? they so totally concentrated on the girl and left that earlier portion a mystery!

It was stated later that Abby killed that man

[longislanditalian2]

Actually, Scotty talked to David Lake in private he did confess to killing Vanessa but Abby took the fall for him and went to jail.