Ep. 4.16 The Good-Bye Room

[LillyKat]

michelle said:

lillykat said:

That's also why I struggle a bit with some of the loose ends / things that seemingly were explored and now aren't / things that seem to be coming up over and over again.

I agree SO much!! Many things started up but never resolved or that seemingly leave no changes to the characters. Case in point: Joseph the Wonder Man/Cat Carrier. . . walks out and Lilly has no after effects whatsoever (that are shown to us anyway, and since it's a TV show, if they aren't shown, they may as well not exist.)

I could give half a dozen examples like that! I'm glad it's not just me. (I hate having issues alone!) ;D

I'm definitely with you on this one, michelle. I can take the better left unsaid / put a story or character away for a rainy day and bring back out of nowhere only to a point.

RichE had a good point about the "Previously on ..." thing. NYPD Blue did this exceptionally well, I think, and given they had a large number of crossover storylines and/or characters, it was helpful in reminding us a) what the various storylines were; b) what might be referenced/covered in the ep; c) let you know they really didn't just forget or drop something that seemed to be so important to a character's overall development.

CC does not do this. Even though they apparently lay out an entire season well in advance (as Meredith referenced when commenting on "The Red and the Blue"), it just feels so disjointed at times (or repetitive/been there, done that, as I felt with this episode). I mean, as it pertains to Lilly, where is the resolution to the whole Kite call from "Beautiful Little Fool" - we call up an ex, spill out the heart on the answer machine and then just ... well, forget it? Is sis just going to constantly remain a fugitive? How's James doing - still writing Lil' letters/is she writing back? How's mom's new marriage that we were SO irked about, yet we ended up attending? I'd ask about serial killer George, but they actually DID take that one from start to finish - LOL!. But don't even get me started on the botched handling of the Joseph storyline ... that is a whole separate rant thread. LOL! ;D

These are just a few examples. There are others (with the other characters as well). With the number of loose ends the show seems to throw out there, a "Previously on ..." would help out this viewer.

[donnieseas]

I felt that this particular show hit directly home. I never went to one of the homes, but I remember being told some of the same things that the girls at the home were told.

I think that this show was handled in a sensitive manner and really told it like it was during that time period. The ending was a "shocker", but, in a way I could see it coming, because I know how Karen and Hillary both felt about giving up their children.

I have to tell you that I cried after this show. It really brought on some of the pent up feelings I have from when I gave up my own child. The acting was well done and I have to commend the writer for handling it with taste and tact.

Thank you for a wonderful show.

[longislanditalian2]

Just a thought, when a picture of Karen's little boy was shown then it flashed to Scotty opening up the door and looking in. Could it be possible that he fathered a child, in his life??

[irishkale]

Hey, I wonder if it was intentional that this ep was broadcast the week of International Women's Day, March 08th!


www.internationalwomensday.com/

Big thanks for Jubop in Chat for pointing this out!

[boxman]

naj said:

...Just curious, was there only one nun at that place?

There was also Sister Abigail, the other nun at the end of the egg-throwing flashback. I did notice too how they remained focused with only Sister Margaret, and I think that was very clever and thoughtful in the writing. By doing so (instead of showing a whole cadre of nuns), seems to have helped them steer clear of outright criticizing the entire institution of Catholic nuns. To put it another way, by centering on Sister Margaret, the writer seemed to be saying that the treatment the girls received were a result of individual decisions made by the individual nuns who worked at those homes, and not by other nuns that never were a part of this adoption scheme. Arguable, I'm sure; but there was more than enough going on in the main story to really need to go that far to make a "political" point.

firstmother said:

Boxman, while I am not Catholic I believe nuns wear wedding bands because they are married to God. Although, I've heard from many Catholic friends about the number of nuns who also gave up babies I'm not sure I saw the connection in this plot but maybe I'm wrong.

chris said:

I don't know a lot about the Catholic religion or their rituals. But seems I have heard or seen portrayed in movies or via my catholic friends...that when a nun takes her vows, she becomes the 'bride' of 'god', thus married to him/her....

eurache said:

As a catholic, yes, the ring on Sister Margaret's left finger meant she was married to God. I believe it's still the tradition for nuns who wish to join the order. The ring symbolizes to being married to God.

I connected the ring to the possibility that some nuns may have been pregnant through the numerical discrepancies in adoptions that Scotty and Stillman raised with Sister Margaret. I thought, "wouldn't it be ironic if those unaccounted babies that were sold were ones that perhaps nuns gave birth to??" After all, I really believe that Sister Margaret *did* establish some type of rapport with Hilary:

Hilary: Sister? Isn't Love enough?
Sister Margaret: Your baby's adoptive parents won't be here til the morning. The nursery door is always open. Tonight the back door will be too.

Just trying to connect the dots: I thought that perhaps by being pregnant herself, Sister Margaret may have secretly understood the young mother's desire to keep their babies. Thus, this allowed Margaret to take the enormous risk of letting Hilary escape the home with her baby before the adoptive parents were to pick "Sunshine" up.

longislanditalian2 said:

If Lilly did have a child why does everyone think that Ray might be the father, maybe it was patrick her ex-finacee??

For myself, I'm beginning to really discount the idea that there ever was a separate "Patrick". I've missed seeing some of the episodes that involve Christina, but nevertheless, in both seasons three and four we see that it's Ray that Lilly's been hung up on for a long time.

riche said:

...Which just made me realise that they didn't show Karen being taken to a cell, one of the few episodes that this didn't happen. Perhaps they didn't want to labour the point any further.

Wow! Good point! BTW, I really liked both actresses that played young and old Karen. Sometimes it's easy to ignore supporting characters, but I thought they were remarkable in showing how these "tough cookies" had a softer heart in them.

firstmother said:

How does Cold Case develop it's story lines?
Do they only use their own writers? I love how complicated the plots are. For me, it's always hard to tell who the bad guy is...

From what I've noticed, there's a set of core writers, and then also other "guest" writers that have done a lot of work on other shows. You might want to look HERE for some answers, FirstMother.

[firstmother]

From what I've noticed, there's a set of core writers, and then also other "guest" writers that have done a lot of work on other shows. You might want to look HERE for some answers, FirstMother.


Thank you Boxman. I clicked on your link and did some reading. Fascinating...This has been great - discussing a storyline that parallels a very unique experience in my life, as well as learning about my favorite show. (other than The Daily Show) LOL
Seriously though, I've never really gotten into other shows of this genre and wondered why I've been so fascinated with Cold Case since I discovered it abt. 2 years ago. Everyone involved from writers to actors and yes, even fans seem to have so much heart.

[riche]

The key difference between CC and most other "cop" shows is that CC about the characters and the story surrounding them.

CSI is about the science. 24 is about the action and the deadlines. CC focuses on a small group of people and their circumstances.

[longislanditalian2]

Something else I've noticed, at the end Vera looks at the box it gave me a flashback to " Ravaged" when is ex girlfriend ( the victims sister) said" What if it would have lived" meaning they were going to have a child, maybe he is thinking about it.


After re-watching it for the third time I do think that Lilly might have either miscarried or had an abortion just by looking in her eyes, there was pain but it might be also mixed with her own childhood. Boxman I do agree that maybe the reason why Lilly is still hung up about Ray after watching the scenes closely.


Sorry to bring this up again but it could be possible...

[toddsmitts]

I finally got to see this episode and it does indeed tug at the heartstrings, especially the song at the end.

A few quick hits:

-It bugged me why the actress who played Hillary looked so darn familiar even though I didn't recognize her name. Now I know why: she's a dead-ringer for Brittany Snow, who also played a teenage girl on a show set in the 1960's, "American Dreams". Her clothes were probably similar to what Brit wore on that show most of the time.

-I figured Huck would probably be the killer since Bruce Boxleitner is probably the best known actor among the guest cast and typically the best known actor plays the killer on most crime dramas. All the "Law & Order" shows do this all the time and even Cold Case has done it before too (i.e. Chris Sarandon in "Volunteers", or Peter Graves in "The Hen House"). I'm glad that wasn't the case here though since it would've been even more depressing with him being a grandfather and this way he was able to meet his daughter.

-Speaking of Bruce Boxleitner, am I the only one who saw him in the great sci-fi series "Babylon 5"?

-This episode got me thinking of my own family after watching it: Back in the sixties, my father and a girl had a kid. They were older than the girls in this show (about twenty-one I think) but still not ready to start a family. They gave the baby girl up for adoption (to loving parents fortunately). Although she eventually re-established contact with my father (I believe her efforts to meet her birth mother didn't go as well) my father didn't tell me or my younger sister about her until I was twenty. I actually met her a couple of times and got along well.

[TVFan]

Interesting points about NYPD Blue using the previously on segments. I think the big difference here is, NYPD Blue was about characters first, cases second where CC is about cases first, characters second. Although I do think that CC does a nice job incorporating both, it still lags in the character department (hence, the dropping of story lines ). But, the show is designed to bring us strong cases, so I guess the price we pay is not getting a lot of character development week after week. It could be worse, the personal stuff could be soapy and overdone ala Without A Trace or completely non-existant ala the Law & Order franchise (minus SVU). Either way, there never seems be enough Lilly.

RichE - great observation with the lack of cuffs and being hauled off to jail. It definitely reinforced the victim point, and lent some compassion to the killer as well as the murder victim.

[longislanditalian2]

It's weird that Lilly carries a picture of her mother holding her as a baby, does her as a baby symbolize a rebirth that she's willing to forgive her

[Disasterfreak]

Coming in late as usual, I find myself with so much I want to say--but it's all been said already. And anyway no one will read this since this discussion is long past. I'd never been sorrier to miss an episode!

This was a true tear-jerker, but it didn't feel fake and manipulative as some of the others before it (in other seasons, not this one). I almost cried in the end, the song was so poignant. And the whole situation was just so tragic and felt so true.

I want to take the time (though it's also been done already) to thank each and every one of the 'girls who went away': Chris, Firstmother, MamaRobina and Donnieseas for being brave and courageous enough to come forward and give their kudos and insight. It gave a whole new dimension to this episode, touched me as much as the ending song did. I also wanna thank Boxman for asking those questions and helping me (and others) understand what was going on at the time.

I live in a Catholic, strictly conservative country where the baby scooping period lasted way beyond the 60s. In fact, I'm not entirely sure it's not going on today. Abortion is still illegal here, I frankly am against it myself, but not against it being legalized. I know that doesn't make any sense, but I think you ought to have the choice--even if I, myself, choose not to take it. There are other women for whom abortion is unfortunately the best choice and they should be allowed to have safe, FREE, and informed access to it. Even the day after pill caused a debate here (geez!) and you weren't allowed to prescribe it in all clinics--my clinic, which belongs to a county where the mayor is wildly conservative, was one of those that couldn't give it away. But I'm proud to say I never let any woman go without the contraception that was due her (not working there anymore so I can say it now, hehe ;D).

And one more thing... now that I am no longer emotionally invested in Lilly I can be more objective, and I honestly do not believe she ever had a child OR an abortion. I think her baby issues stem mostly from the fact she felt abandoned by her own mother, thus all the "some people aren't ready to be mothers" comment. Her behavior is just too flippant when it comes to abortion, adoption and babies. I don't think she'd be as flippant if she'd been one to suffer the loss.

[cali1015]

A bit late but I found this board after the Cargo epi, so yeah...

anyway, this episode was so sad... I'm actually adopted so... I started to cry a bit and I never cry at movies or tv shows...

erg... I just don't know what to say.

[toddsmitts]

Just noticed something quite startling that no one else seems to have caught:

When Hilary's case is closed, and they put the box away, look at the name and date on the box to the right... It's George's mother!!!

I wonder if anyone on the set or in the editing lab caught this. It's sort of ironic, given the episode's themes, that they would put Hilary's box next to the box for what was definately the worst mother ever seen on the show. (The mothers in "Churchgoing People" and "Blackout" come close but they never produced a serial killer).

[Disasterfreak]

Interesting catch, todds... I never really get to see the side boxes, though I always look.

[shiloh]

This episode screened here last night.
All I can say is that I found the whole thing so incredibly sad.

[eurache]

Re-airing on December 4th, 2007

[vavavoomya]

I love this episode very well done!!

[KathrynFan]

i loved this episode, the acting and the story was so well done,

[krystalnjoeysmom]

I cried so hard that my chin was quivering from trying to hold it back so my husband didn't know I was crying.