|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 22, 2006 10:05:27 GMT -5
about the bubbles flying past Lilly in the end could this symbolize her release of sadness and onto to a newer happier life
|
|
Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom 
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
|
Post by Disasterfreak on Nov 22, 2006 19:31:39 GMT -5
I have such mixed feelings about this episode, I really can't vote.  As everyone else has said, the way they developed the characters and the story was confusing. I liked the twists of the plot itself, but I could never make up my mind if they were making fun of these "ugly" girls or not. I didn't really appreciate it--found it kind of insulting really. Sure maybe it was all supposed to be a parody, but it's still not nice to kick someone when they're down, and making fun of non-model-like girls who just want to be loved is kind of sadistic IMO. Besides, I know loads of non-model-like girls who WEREN'T desperate and still got love, and from the right places too. And I also know perfectly normal looking girls who can't find a Valentine lollipop to call their own. So...  Confused here. I DID like the main cast moments--nothing new to add ;D. All those little scenes were sheer bursts of brilliance IMHO. Homey, realistic, endearing and believable. My all-time fave character here was Sherry the transvest (sp?) though. Great moment with Jeffries and Rush--lines and expressions I'll never forget.  Plus wasn't she just the sweetest? I kinda like those gals. Too bad they always tend to turn to prostitution and drugs.  |
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 22, 2006 22:51:32 GMT -5
Maybe Lilly now realizes that Kat might have the same exact feelings about loneliness and finding " Mr. Right" , judging by the way the two acted. Maybe Kat might make a good friend
|
|
|
|
Post by TVFan on Nov 25, 2006 16:53:03 GMT -5
DF - You and I are on the exact same page with this one. I really don't think that they were intentionally making fun of these girls. The problem is, it came across that way. I think the cheestastic nature of the 80s caused the execution of the story to seem like a mockery rather than a sympathetic tale. Even if we think that Martha is a horrible person, it has nothing to do with her looks. It has to do with what she did in order to keep Ramon. This is where things get sticky. We're supposed to believe this girl is so ugly (which she wasn't BTW) that she'll do anything to keep the hot guy, including killing other innocent, "ugly" girls to get their money for Ramon (again, though, the other girls were not ugly). It's so ridiculously pathetic that it comes across as a parody or a mockery. After all, Hollywood is the land of the beautiful. In any event, it just didn't work because you were never sure whether the show was being rude or sympathetic.
That Jeffries/Lilly scene that you mentioned was brilliant. Seriously it, along with a few others like it, saved this episode. I had a hard time giving it a good, but those scenes were so dang awesome. I agree that this is a tough one to vote on.
|
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 25, 2006 17:56:33 GMT -5
Im' glad that Lilly isn't like those women, so desperate enough to make a video. If anything the bubbles passing by her seem to represent to me a personal change. That Lilly might be going through finding her happiness in her soul.
|
|
Swoznick
Desk Clerk I
Resident Tracie Fan [/center][/color]
Det. Kat Miller
Posts: 29
|
Post by Swoznick on Nov 25, 2006 17:58:19 GMT -5
Well - I for one, thought this show was going to take a totally different tack when Martha mentioned she was a mortician's assistant in her video... I kept waiting to see morgue scenes.. I must say - that I'm glad they did'nt go there. ( Does that sound like a motive in the game "Clue" to anyone else but me?) I gotta hand it to Martha - she put her job right out there - not hiding anything.. Stillman kinda portrayed the feel of the 80's too - when they reviewed Euginia's video and she was talking about fishing as a hobby. It's almost of those tapes were supposed to sell the person as an "opportunity for a good time". What she was saying about herself was honest - but not sexy. Stillman did'nt relate and turned a cold shoulder. I thought it was poetic justice that he was in on the conversation about the brides getting ready for the weddings and received the "5 point wax" line. His eyebrows could'nt have gotten any higher on his forehead... Lots of ghosts in this one.. Enough to hold us over for two weeks without the show? :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 25, 2006 18:05:18 GMT -5
I think Lilly and Kat were the only ones who seemed to understand what was going on. Something I had noticed again, When Lilly mentions a possible love thing Scotty laughs . Then when Kat mentions something simliar Lilly turns away..
Lilly looked happy throughout the whole episode not an ounce of sadness in her face. When Euguina talked about not finding the right guy, the look on Lilly's face was priceless but the ending really symbolized a lot with her how much she's changed and her walked was symbolizing her journey to find herself.
|
|
Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
|
Post by Disasterfreak on Nov 25, 2006 20:01:22 GMT -5
DF I really don't think that they were intentionally making fun of these girls. The problem is, it came across that way. I think the cheestastic nature of the 80s caused the execution of the story to seem like a mockery rather than a sympathetic tale. Even if we think that Martha is a horrible person, it has nothing to do with her looks. It has to do with what she did in order to keep Ramon. This is where things get sticky. We're supposed to believe this girl is so ugly (which she wasn't BTW) that she'll do anything to keep the hot guy, including killing other innocent, "ugly" girls to get their money for Ramon (again, though, the other girls were not ugly). It's so ridiculously pathetic that it comes across as a parody or a mockery. After all, Hollywood is the land of the beautiful. In any event, it just didn't work because you were never sure whether the show was being rude or sympathetic. I think you're absolutely right, TVFan!! I've looked at this episode from so many POV and still can't make up my mind whether I liked it or not. Well... I DID like it, but can't decide if I APPROVED of it or not. But it's made us think, and that's a plus, right? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 25, 2006 20:03:10 GMT -5
I thought it was good episode, made me laugh at times.
|
|
|
|
Post by TVFan on Nov 26, 2006 17:44:29 GMT -5
This is definitely one of those eps where the case spawns a lot of discussion and thought. Couldn't agree more about that, DF. Love it or hate it, we're all discussing the issues that it raised for a change (versus the personal lives of the characters  ). It's fun to talk about both, but I do love when a case gets me worked up enough to go on and on about it on here. That means it struck a cord (in this case, it was a disturbed one). This was one of those "car wreck" episodes. You didn't approve of the subject matter, but you couldn't turn away. It was painful to watch because these women were so desperate that they were pathetic. Even in the end, Martha died because another desperate woman wanted Ramon for herself. Oh, what a tangled, pathetically desperate web CC weaved with this one! |
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 26, 2006 17:47:12 GMT -5
In comparison to Martha , Lilly isn't that desperate for a man. But Lilly knows what it's like to be under a spell of being in love. Something I had noticed and posted in the blooper section, When Cherry askes " Is he always this fiesty" Lilly or Kathryn opens her mouth like she's about to speak then closes it .
|
|
Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
Posts: 3,750
|
Post by Disasterfreak on Nov 26, 2006 22:04:00 GMT -5
What makes you think it's a blooper, though, LII? It could've been written that way. After all, I think most of us would do the codfish face if some transvestite were talking about us "behind our backs" to the cute guy right next to me. LOL. At least I know I would. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 26, 2006 22:06:48 GMT -5
@df- It looked like a blooper to me, but it was a little odd. Hey maybe I was right about Lilly learning to find happiness in herself, the ending really was proving that |
|
|
|
Post by eurache on Nov 26, 2006 23:25:37 GMT -5
In comparison to Martha , Lilly isn't that desperate for a man. But Lilly knows what it's like to be under a spell of being in love. Something I had noticed and posted in the blooper section, When Cherry askes " Is he always this fiesty" Lilly or Kathryn opens her mouth like she's about to speak then closes it . I don't think that was a blooper, it's part of script written. This is what writer/writers do and they direct as tohow the other character is to react to this. It's call acting and this episode was to be written in some situations to be funny ie. Jeffries reaction Cherry calling him Choco-love, Cherry saying that to Lilly and Lilly's reaction. All of this is written in a script; a TV script and actors are giving direction as to how to react to a particular scene. AGain, this is called Acting and it's a TV show.  |
|
boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
|
Post by boxman on Nov 29, 2006 2:04:01 GMT -5
Unusual episode... I was expecting something more along the line of "The Promise" or even "Dog Day Afternoons". This, though, seems a bit more on the comedic side like the episode "Greed". As a result, I'm not very surprised at the "Hated It!" votes. "Greed", if you folks recall, was a bit of a parody on "Wall Street", a 1987 Oliver Stone movie. That irritated me at first too, since I was surprised at how it seemed to mock a movie I really liked. "Greed" later grew on me though, as I began to accept it for what it was... This episode also grew on me as I rewatched it to listen to some dialog again. I'm giving it a "Good". The bubbles?? Well, to me they just remind me of the bubble-butt I grew this past year. LoL... Now isn't that special?? ;D Surely a tip-off that this episode was done in jest, no?? It's still so unusual, I think. Like for example, the X-Files could pull off a funny episode every now-and-then. I guess it's easy when dealing with aliens and such. But I suppose the topic of murder makes humor a bit more unexpected in Cold Case?? I thought it was *hilarious* how Martha was just *staring* into the freezer at those pops. Thanks for the screen caps, Irishkale! - Why is it Vera who "sees" the hit 'n' run bride in the end, I don't see the connection -Why does Stillman "see" Ramon in the end? I thought it was Vera because he read that romance novel and thus gained an insight into the brides' dreams, how they had all those romantic fantasies in their heads, and Stillman because he said that it doesn't matter how they feel about the victim, they close that case and at the same time the murders of the brides (he said it about Martha, but the same applies to Ramon). Don't forget in "Ravaged" it's kinda hinted that Vera may have married his "second choice", rather than the high school sweetheart he seemed to really want. And to make it a bit worse, we find in season three that Nick and Julie have fertility problems that seem to have caused other problems as well. Definitely, Nick has a jerk-off side to him that picks on little kids and is infidel to his wife, yet he also seems to understand that marriage is important to women. He, after all, didn't get to marry the woman of his dreams, and his hopes of having kids someday were lost with the woman he did end up marrying. I think those reasons suit well to why Vera saw the bride at the end. In this episode, Ramon's case wasn't "cold"--it was currently open and still a "fresh" case. Stillman brought the cold case team in because Ramon's death seemed linked to Martha's murder, a cold one. By reopening Martha's case, they also solved the personal issues behind Ramon's suicide. I guess Ramon appreciated that?? Maybe that's why he gave Stillman the nod?? As everyone else has said, the way they developed the characters and the story was confusing. I liked the twists of the plot itself, but I could never make up my mind if they were making fun of these "ugly" girls or not. I didn't really appreciate it--found it kind of insulting really. Sure maybe it was all supposed to be a parody, but it's still not nice to kick someone when they're down, and making fun of non-model-like girls who just want to be loved is kind of sadistic IMO. As I watched it, the opening scene was done to the song "(She's Got) The Look" by Roxette, and they videotaped Martha still wearing her coat and didn't even give her time to brush her hair or do a second take. It kinda hinted to me that this episode may go the parody route like "Greed", though I agree that it was a bit uncomfortable to watch... Still, what was a bit funny to me because Ramon reminded me almost *exactly* of a guy I knew from the early 90's. We were part of a group of guys that hung out in discos to meet ladies, and Ramon's looks and "suave" act really reminds me of him... LOL.. Well - I for one, thought this show was going to take a totally different tack when Martha mentioned she was a mortician's assistant in her video... I kept waiting to see morgue scenes.. I must say - that I'm glad they did'nt go there. ( Does that sound like a motive in the game "Clue" to anyone else but me?) I gotta hand it to Martha - she put her job right out there - not hiding anything.. LOL... I dated a mortician once. She wasn't afraid to mention it on the first date either! did [Kat] have the black leather jacket again Boxman? Yes she did! Look in the warehouse scene... It's hard to see at first since the jacket is hidden in the shadows, but she's got a black leather jacket on again! HMMMM..... This was one of those "car wreck" episodes. You didn't approve of the subject matter, but you couldn't turn away. It was painful to watch because these women were so desperate that they were pathetic. Even in the end, Martha died because another desperate woman wanted Ramon for herself. I think this murder case taught Lilly a huge lesson about love and made her realize what is important , that all of these women were lonely like her and wanted to find happiness with a man, I think Lilly then realized that happiness can be felt within one's self instead of love. Lilly knows that finding happiness in herself will make her a stronger person all around I look at this episode as another "Lilly-centric" episode without a lot of Lilly in it. Essentially, here's a woman (Martha) who will do anything to keep her man, including committing crime. Doesn't this sound a little like McRay and Lilly?? From 2.04 "The House", we know that McRay has a shady past and will easily commit crime. This is confirmed in 4.03 "Sandhogs" where he asks her for help with some hot bikes. (And also "confirmed" symbolically by the black leather jackets he likes to wear.) The way the conversation went between Lilly and Ray in "Sandhogs", it seems as if there *was* a time when Lilly used her inside connections at the Philly PD to help McRay.... but no longer. So unlike Martha, there's limits on what Lilly would do to keep a man. Consequently, in 4.04 "Baby Blues", Ray says he's jetting out West. This leaves Lilly to wonder a bit if she should've done more to keep the men in her life with her. Well, in the previous ep, "The Key", we contrast Lilly, a career woman, with Libby, the domesticated housewife. Apparently, this contrast sorta illustrates the way Lilly isn't domesticated--she burns pancakes..  No luck for Joe. So now here, in "Lonely Hearts", we can contrast the law-breaking Martha with the law-abiding Lilly. Again, like how Libby was an "anti-Lilly", Martha is also an "anti-Lilly"; sooo, this episode actually tells of an "alternate Lilly" that never came about. Lilly has the good sense not to commit crime, unlike poor Martha. So no luck for McRay either. Lilly's smile at the end of the episode, in my view, is a hint at Catharsis. My interpretation of Lilly's smile is that she has learned from Libby's and Martha's unfortunate fates that the road she finds herself travelling upon (alone, without either Joseph or Ray), is not a bad road to be upon at all. By understanding Libby and Martha's tragedies and deaths, Lilly is able to have a greater appreciation of her own life, even though she no longer has two important men in it anymore. --- Ramon suggest to Martha that they go to Geno's, a rather famous place in South Philly to get a cheesesteak sandwich: www.genosteaks.com/After staring at those cherry-flavored popsicles, Martha wants to look for Pretzels, a popular snack in this area (especially soft pretzels). The Sturgis Pretzel House is the oldest pretzel bakery in the US, and is still in operation. It's located about 70 miles northwest of Philly. Eugenia tells Martha in the supermarket that she can't even give her son "sauce" for his "noodles". In Philly, (especially South Philly, with it's large Italian population), people tend to call spaghetti sauce more by the slang term "gravy" rather than "sauce" or "spaghetti sauce" or "marinara": www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gravy&page=2  |
|
Lee
Detective
Ray's Girl [/color][/center]
TH? TRUTH IS ?UT TH?R?
Posts: 461
|
Post by Lee on Nov 29, 2006 3:23:49 GMT -5
Bloody hell Boxman, write enough there?
|
|
|
|
Post by eurache on Nov 29, 2006 7:57:03 GMT -5
LOL..Lee  I've been nodding my head with agreement, Boxman. I love when you really think into this and reading what you wrote/describe is so true. Vera with his second choice; Lilly seeing that her life is not bad after all; Stillman seeing Ramon; etc.. I love it!! Thanks Boxman  |
|
boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
|
Post by boxman on Nov 30, 2006 2:31:11 GMT -5
I've been nodding my head with agreement, Boxman. I love when you really think into this and reading what you wrote/describe is so true. Vera with his second choice; Lilly seeing that her life is not bad after all; Stillman seeing Ramon; etc.. I love it!! Thanks Boxman Thank *you*! Bloody hell Boxman, write enough there? But *wait*!! There's more! When Lilly and Scotty enter Ramon's apartment in the opening scene, Scotty comments at what a "sweet pad" Ramon has, and Lilly answers,"If you like zebra print". But there are *no zebra stripes* visible anywhere in the room... The only striped print visible is Scotty's necktie!! Zebra stripes on clothing--is this an allusion to prison uniforms?? Does this foreshadow Scotty doing time or at least receiving some type of punishment for his vigilatism in "The River"?? In the episode "Static", Dottie (who turned out to be the murderer) was filmed behind her porch railing as if she was "behind bars". Later in this episode, Scotty and Vera are *filmed through railings* as they *exit their car* (an automotive reference, which in Cold Case usually indicates crime or criminality). That's a double-dose of criminal symbolism in that camera shot!! HMMM..... Come to think of it, that scarf is showing up quite a bit too.. I'm gonna wait to vote until I see the whole thing. I'm not sure if scarfs mean anything. Philly can be a cold city. But in the scene when Lilly is reading Martha's diary, it can be clearly seen that Kat is wearing that unusual pendant we first noticed in 4.02 "The War At Home". We've talked about this quite a bit on that thread, but still haven't come to any conclusion of whether it's "good" or "bad". Furthur thoughts on Vera & Stillman: In spite of his playboy act, Vera does reveal to Scotty, "I'm no good on my own" in this episode. Clearly, this is an indication that he'd rather be steady with one woman rather than dating many women, and thus he can empathize with a woman who wanted to settle down too. This line Vera delivers also ties-in nicely with the lyrics "I always got by on my own" in the closing song, "Alone". A very nifty thing about Stillman seeing Ramon's "ghost" is that Stillman sees Ramon *through a mirror*. The "Stillman-centric" episode 3.08 "Honor" was about the death of Carl, a Vietnam War POW. A mirror was used in that episode to reveal that while people thought that Carl was a war hero, deep inside he was actually suffering from the way he dishonored his fellow POWs to gain his freedom. In this episode, the Cold Case crew use a photo of Ramon where he is photographed *through a mirror*. His photo is as superficial as one expects. But because of Martha's investigation, we discover that maybe he actually did fall in love with Martha. Perhaps their shared experiences kindled feelings of love and intimacy in him?? If so, then there is some significance that Stillman saw Ramon's ghost through a mirror--we can see deeper through Ramon's superficiality. Perhaps Ramon really did eventually cultivate a consciousness, and had some feelings of love for Martha and some guilt for his crimes?? Then the use of mirrors as "windows into a person's inner self" are used well in both episodes, with Stillman in common. I'm *very impressed* with that consistency. [The idea of a "growing consciousness" is not only shown in Ramon, but also echoed in Martha. At first, her idea of love is simply bumping into a stranger at a park. But Vera recognizes from Martha's diary that her consciousness may have caught up with her. Vera reads an entry where Martha reads the inscription on a pocket watch they stole, and it hits her that what they're doing is wrong.] The "strategic" placement of the cherries in the popsicle box clearly makes them appear phallic. The popsicles aren't the only association between cherries and phallic symbols; "Cherry", the prostitute, also has a, um, "phallic" device of her/his own. ;D On Martha and Ramon's first date, Martha uses a big flower over her ear as a way to call out who she is in the room. She wears it over her right ear--the side that is opposite of her heart and ring finger. Interesting, because what she's doing follows the Hawaiian tradition that women use to indicate that they're single. (Married or committed women wear flowers over their left ear, the same side as their heart and ring finger.) This allusion to Hawaiian culture--here in an "anti-Lilly" episode--nicely ties-in with the other Hawaiian allusion in the "anti-Lilly" episode "The Key", where a character wore a "puka shell" necklace. See all the "nice tie-ins" with things in this episode and the rest of the Cold Case saga?? So while my discomfort prevented me from giving this an "Excellent", it definitely earns a very high "Good". |
|
|
|
Post by longislanditalian2 on Nov 30, 2006 8:47:07 GMT -5
The ending was interesting Lilly who is smiling and turns around watching the kids run past her playing. Maybe she is slowly realizing that maybe she might not find her true love but that happiness can be found in herself. The Camera then shows Lilly " Listening" like Martha was telling her personally inside of her head.
Both Eugina and Martha maybe taught her a lesson about love and life.
" Some people get lucky with love, some don't that's life"
Did anyone see the wheels turning in Lilly's head like she was now starting to realize something about inner self.
Boxman - I had noticed about the zebra stripes and what Lilly said to him. Maybe it's illuding to the fact that she might know what he had done and like you said, maybe foreshadowing something.
I also noticed the blush on Lilly's face ,does this symbolize her inner emotions at times? It gets redder when she is upset or thinking about something negetive?
Anyone notice that there were Three ghosts shown: The first Buela in her wedding dress in front of Scotty, Then Ramon with Stillman and Martha with Lilly. Is it all a possiblity that Martha was trying to prevent Lilly from making the same mistake and landing up with a guy like Ramon?
|
|
Swoznick
Desk Clerk I
Resident Tracie Fan [/center][/color]
Det. Kat Miller
Posts: 29
|
Post by Swoznick on Nov 30, 2006 22:31:01 GMT -5
Boxman:
You mentioned Kat's necklace. I remembered seeing her wear that necklace in the episode you mentioned. I did not have DVR at that time - when I was watching the episode I only caught the casual glance of it and I distinctly remembered thinking - oh cool she's wearing a whale's fluke necklace. I think I saw it in screencaps for season 3 somewhere too. So I went back to screencaps and DVR just now to take a closer look. I have another theory about what it is.. I think you may be on the right track with hammer - but let's go one step further - and you're gonna have fun with this one...
A hammerhead shark's head. It's the right shape and conture with the ridge on the midline.. Usually depicted in dull silver or pewter. The heavy, thickness of it would be correct as well. A masculine necklace on a large cord, rather than a petite pendant on a chain....
So - I have to beg this one question as a possiblity. I read the spoiler thread where InsideR said that they often have several episodes filming at one time. Could it be that they were filming like that - and the stylist had several outfits to depict several different days and scenarios - where mix and match clothing could be used - and as a cooincidence the same necklace was worn during the course of the shooting? Do we think the appearance of the necklace is purposeful as a symbol?
I'm wondering the significance of the black jacket and now the necklace - but I also have to give a nod to current fashion trends. I'm still stuck in the possibility that Kat had to update her wardrobe to be on the homicide team - with limited funds, she would be making careful purchases as she went along - but they would have to be versitile and interchangeable so that several outfits could come from a few pieces of clothing... Food for thought..
Your turn...
She wore it in fireflies too. The cord was around her neck, but her blouse covered the pendant.
|
|
..........
..........
...........
). It's fun to talk about both, but I do love when a case gets me worked up enough to go on and on about it on here. That means it struck a cord (in this case, it was a disturbed one). This was one of those "car wreck" episodes. You didn't approve of the subject matter, but you couldn't turn away. It was painful to watch because these women were so desperate that they were pathetic. Even in the end, Martha died because another desperate woman wanted Ramon for herself. Oh, what a tangled, pathetically desperate web CC weaved with this one! 
No luck for Joe. So now here, in "Lonely Hearts", we can contrast the law-breaking Martha with the law-abiding Lilly. Again, like how Libby was an "anti-Lilly", Martha is also an "anti-Lilly"; sooo, this episode actually tells of an "alternate Lilly" that never came about. Lilly has the good sense not to commit crime, unlike poor Martha. So no luck for McRay either.
