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Post by eduardodelroice on Nov 19, 2008 8:50:11 GMT -5
I have a dumb question, what is the title 'triple threat' referring to? Certainly not a dumb question. Triple Threat seems to be an often used phrase normally to with something/someone that literally has 3 areas in which it/they are strong. Perhaps a player in a team sport that excels in 3 different aspects of the sport. Exactly how they are attaching it to this case, and I assume Nadia herself, I'm not sure. Thanks for the answer/I had the same question before... why triple threat Nadia was a wonderful singer/finally found her voice... what else? |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Nov 19, 2008 13:22:31 GMT -5
This is not true at all. As you point out yourself, Lilly in fact *did* talk about her past with McAvoy. She responded that that like he, she herself had an unsolved case regarding this "Paul Cooper". You wrote this yourself:
It's either a lie or it's not. Yes, we don't know the truth yet and the circumstances surrounding her and "Paul Cooper" could be entirely professional. However, by many indications "Paul Cooper" has nothing to do with an unsolved homicide, and he is someone entirely personal to her. Therefore, in that case, Lilly's response to McAvoy was indeed a lie.
Now if "Paul Cooper" is truly someone personal to her and not someone involved in one of her homicide cases, Lilly could have easily expressed her empathy AND not lied to McAvoy by simply saying something truthful like this:
"Mac, in my years in Homicide, I've been fortunate enough to not have an unsolved case like yours. But I can certainly understand how something like this has haunted you through all the years."
Hey, if you want to give Lilly the benefit of the doubt, that's fine with me. The story could certainly work out that way. I, on the other hand, have chosen not to do so.
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Post by riche on Nov 19, 2008 14:35:38 GMT -5
This is not true at all. As you point out yourself, Lilly in fact *did* talk about her past with McAvoy. And you've conveniently (or mistakenly) missed the key word I used in that sentence: "much". She doesn't talk about herself much. Understand? Am I lying about that? And based on what we know so far it is not. You said "strange lying she does from time-to-time." I'm saying I don't consider it lying. She uses her experiences to empathise with people, we've seen it so often in interrogations to gain trust, to show people that they are not the only ones feeling a certain way. She may not have given him chapter and verse on the issue but that doesn't exactly make it a lie. She's been a cop for a long time, probably as a response to things that happened in her childhood. If this Paul Cooper is really a personal matter she may very well consider it an unsolved case. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on Nov 19, 2008 19:59:28 GMT -5
This is not true at all. As you point out yourself, Lilly in fact *did* talk about her past with McAvoy. And you've conveniently (or mistakenly) missed the key word I used in that sentence: "much". She doesn't talk about herself much. Understand? Am I lying about that? RichE, your response to me focused on Lilly and McAvoy's discussion. When you wrote that she doesn't talk much about herself or her past, it appeared to me you were still referring to the specific encounter between the two detectives, rather than Lilly in general. You're certainly entitled to that opinion. As I said earlier, if you want to give Lilly the benefit of the doubt, that's fine with me. However, I disagree with you that what has been shown so far indicates Lilly is not lying. My opinion is that "Paul Cooper" is completely a personal interest for Lilly, and he is not related to an unsolved homicide case at all. First of all, Paul Cooper doesn't reside in Philadelphia. He hasn't even lived in the State of Pennsylvania at all within the past decade. This minimizes (though it doesn't eliminate) the possibility he was involved in a Philly murder that Lilly was investigating. Secondly, if Paul Cooper is somehow involved with an unsolved murder, then why did Lilly close the computer screen when Scotty came around? He's one of her closest co-workers, and if Paul Cooper was involved with a murder, Scotty should be one of the first persons Lilly calls upon for help. There would be no need for her to hide the fact she was doing research on Paul. Thirdly, since she located Paul Cooper and visited his house when people were visibly inside, then why didn't she just step out of her car, knock on their door, and ask to speak with Mr. Cooper? And why was it that she appeared to be in her own car (a Toyota Prius), when it has been long established that the detectives drive the city's Ford Tauruses when on duty? Finally, if Paul Cooper is involved with a homicide, then where are the case files? Where's the case box, the manila folders, and packages of evidence? None of this has been shown to us. All of this gives reason for me to believe Paul Cooper was not involved with an unsolved homicide; thus her statement to Detective McAvoy was false--a lie. Rich, where I'm from if an individual knowingly makes statements to deceive another person, that is called a Lie. From what I have seen so far, I am leaning towards concluding that Lilly was not being truthful to Detective McAvoy when she told him she also had an unsolved murder similar to his case regarding Danny Finch. In fact, I am leaning towards concluding that she was being deceptive. For what reason Lilly wanted to deceive him, I don't know why. Sure. And when Ellen moved in with her, they had an argument regarding what a lousy mom Ellen was. Ellen defended herself by saying that she was a good mom, and one example is how she would sit by young Lilly's side and read her a book to help her sleep. Lilly vehemently denied that, which left Ellen with a surprised look on her face. Later, we see Lilly opening the book,"The Velveteen Rabbit". This moment was left open for interpretation by the viewers, and I took it that Lilly lied about Ellen reading bedtime stories. You may have interpreted this scene differently, and I am fine with that. But this is one of those moments where I felt Lilly lied about her past for no reason at all. Similarly, if Paul Cooper has nothing to do with a homicide that Lilly was unable to solve, she could have simply told McAvoy the truth in the way I proposed earlier. We just don't know enough yet about Cooper; and whether you like it or not, after this episode I am leaning towards believing that Lilly's statement to McAvoy was an unnecessary deception. A Lie. But Lilly did not present her interest in Paul Cooper as a personal matter. She presented the idea to McAvoy as if Cooper was involved with an actual Philly homicide case that she was unable to solve. In the coming episodes, we'll see how it all goes. Who knows? Maybe in the storage room Lilly found a box of an unsolved murder, and her dad's name showed up in the investigation. And so she took the box home with her so other detectives wouldn't work on the case; She would be the only one investigating it. If the story unfolds in this kind of way, then she wasn't lying, Paul Cooper could indeed be her dad, and it would explain all this sneaking around she's been doing. The Lilly/Cooper scenes in this episode is probably just a red herring for the viewers. |
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SamIam
Senior Detective
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Post by SamIam on Nov 19, 2008 21:39:20 GMT -5
I finaly saw this episode  and i loved it. not the best ever...but much better than the past few this season. I think everyones basically said everything but some parts i really liked were: - Young Vera and vera's interrogation -Scotty and kat arguing...the whole cofee poison thing was priceless -i never would of guessed who the murderer was...or that she was poisoned -the whole lilly/cooper thing. i can't wait to find out for sure whether he's her father or not. <3 Sam |
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Post by riche on Nov 20, 2008 15:05:43 GMT -5
RichE, your response to me focused on Lilly and McAvoy's discussion. When you wrote that she doesn't talk much about herself or her past, it appeared to me you were still referring to the specific encounter between the two detectives, rather than Lilly in general. After talking specifics I started a whole new paragraph to generalised about Lilly with "Lilly's a fairly secretive person, not talking much about herself or her past, I certainly wouldn't call her a liar." I thought that was a pretty clear shift to a more general comment, apparently it wasn't clear enough. I'll try to be even more obvious in future. You are correct, it doesn't mean at all that Paul Cooper wasn't involved in a crime that Lilly was involved in investigating. Because she's always been so open with him in the past... We don't know why she might do that. Let's look at this as though it is related to an old case (go on, just this once, try). Perhaps in her early days Lilly was involved in the investigation of a case that involved Paul Cooper, not necessarily the chief suspect or perpetrator . She screwed up somehow and he got away before arrest. Clearly Lilly is not going to be happy about this and would want to correct her mistake. She's finally been able to track the guy down, he may have changed his name etc., perhaps she stumbled across his photo somehow. Because of the passage of time she can't be 100% certain it's the guy. Plus, she wants to make sure she has a good case, with all the necessary evidence, before attempting to arrest him. She wants to get all this done before discussing it with others. The earlier screw-up makes her want to basically solve the case before discussing it with others yet. That way she can go to Stillman and say, "I've got this old job I messed up, but I've solved it." For the reasons stated above and any contact with him now might lead him to flee or destroy any remaining evidence prior to being arrested. Lilly was driving a Ford Taurus. A few seconds web searching confirmed that the parts of Lilly's car we did see were a Taurus and not a Prius. Also the Prius was facing in the wrong direction for the shot we saw of Lilly looking out of the car window towards the house. The Prius was also there to show people were home (confirmed by the presence of people in the window) and to emphasise that the Coopers are reasonably well off (the nice house, mailbox out front). The fact that the Prius is supposed to be a "green" car* pushes the impression that the Paul Cooper is not a bad guy in general. Which proves nothing. Just because we haven't seen something doesn't mean it can't be presumed to exist. As I said, Lilly is not the most forthcoming of people, we only really see her when she is working on the case in hand. Yes, they could show a shot of the case file/box but not doing so just adds to the ambiguity of the whole thing. They are clearly building up to a reveal. Why would she want to deceive McAvoy? Her statement may not have been completely truthful, but she has no reason to deceive to McAvoy about it. He's an ex-cop that just helped solve the one case that prevented him retiring fully. That line dropped into the discussion with McAvoy was clearly a plot point to introduce the issue with Cooper, but was done so in a way in keeping with the way Lilly's character. She's guarded about herself and she's a cop. I'm sure it is very nice to live in a world that is so black-and-white, but Lilly was not trying to deceive McAvoy. In my opinion there are reasons for it. 2 possibles are: 1. Lilly did not initially lie. When she said it didn't happen, she believed it to be true. She was angry, upset and frustrated with her mother. Ellen tried to remind Lilly that she had been a good mother at times. Having spent many years trying to forget her childhood and demonising her mother it would be easy for Lilly to not recall the nicer moments like the bedtime reading. Later as she thought more about it she remembered. 2. It was a deliberate lie to hurt her mother's feelings. Not a deception, an attack. Much like her outburst at Scotty about Christina ("won't bring back your dead girl friend"). Lilly is a very closed in character. She's not demonstrative. She bottles it up. The few times she does let it out it can be rather explosive. Yes, she could have done. But, assuming that Cooper is not an old case, rather than come out with whatever the actual truth is Lilly decided to show that she had a similar (as in a long standing wish for answers) issue hanging over her head. She was empathising. Cop talking to cop. She recognised something of herself in McAvoy. I just think there are greater nuances involved, which as someone with such an eye for small details I thought you'd appreciate. I know that. In fact, I said that she put it in terms of a case. She had her reasons for doing so, which I've already stated. Well, you've certainly taken them seriously. As I said above, the Lilly/Cooper scene was designed to introduce the Paul Cooper issue, and throw in a little ambiguity. * From the standpoint of environmental impact the Toyota Prius is actually amongst the worst cars ever made, not the best. |
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Post by riche on Nov 20, 2008 15:08:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the answer/I had the same question before... why triple threat Nadia was a wonderful singer/finally found her voice... what else? OK, so she's: 1. A great singer. This makes her a threat to her classmates. 2. She has caught the eye of the male teacher. She's a threat to the woman teacher. 3. Catching the other girl with drugs. Threat to her future career. That's the best I've got for now. |
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Collider
Loyal to Look Again
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Heretic Pride
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Post by Collider on Nov 20, 2008 16:25:55 GMT -5
Or possibly something like...
1. She's foreign, which makes her a threat to those people who feel they deserve her opportunities more than she does (see the girl with the black roses).
2. She's a talent, which makes her a threat to other students and teachers whose jealousy overwhelms them.
3. She's a young, modern woman with her own ideas and interests, which makes her a threat to her father's traditionalist views and his intentions for her.
Maybe?
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Nov 20, 2008 20:39:57 GMT -5
Let's look at this as though it is related to an old case (go on, just this once, try). Perhaps in her early days Lilly was involved in the investigation of a case that involved Paul Cooper, not necessarily the chief suspect or perpetrator . She screwed up somehow and he got away before arrest. Clearly Lilly is not going to be happy about this and would want to correct her mistake. She's finally been able to track the guy down, he may have changed his name etc., perhaps she stumbled across his photo somehow. Because of the passage of time she can't be 100% certain it's the guy. Plus, she wants to make sure she has a good case, with all the necessary evidence, before attempting to arrest him. She wants to get all this done before discussing it with others. The earlier screw-up makes her want to basically solve the case before discussing it with others yet. That way she can go to Stillman and say, "I've got this old job I messed up, but I've solved it." Rich, in my prior post I already presented a scenario where Paul Cooper actually was involved in an unsolved homicide that Lilly was investigating, and thus in turn Lilly wasn't lying to McAvoy. And like I have been telling you, I've decided this is the less likely scenario. Yes, and I did say, "The Lilly/Cooper scenes in this episode is probably just a red herring for the viewers", meaning that the writers are likely feeding us information to intentionally cause us to reach the wrong conclusions. This means that whatever you, me, or anyone else are thinking at the moment can equally turn out to be incorrect when Lilly's relationship with Paul Cooper is finally revealed. Now stop right there. If a "statement may not have been completely truthful", then what is it? Yes, it is very nice, and you should try it some time.  That's your conclusion. And like me, your conclusion is based upon the limited information provided to us thus far. So as much as you want to convince me that my view is incorrect, you have no solid basis to make this statement nor to be fully convinced that your view is correct either. Until it is revealed if Paul Cooper was actually involved in an unsolved homicide that Lilly was investigating, you are just as clueless to Lilly's intention with McAvoy as I am. FINALLY you are beginning to see things from my point-of-view. Oh I do think there are many nuances involved here, and after evaluating all of them I've simply come to a different conclusion than you have. Rich, we're having this extended discussion only because you would like to see me come to the same conclusions and have the same opinions that you have. But at this point, you have not convinced me to evaluate things any differently than before, so I think it's about time for us to agree to disagree. Besides, just look at our opposing views this way: If you and I were drinking Guinness at JD McGillycuddy's in Upper Darby and Lilly, Kat, and ADA Thomas walked in, you won't have any competition from me with your advances on Detective Rush. I'm sure you can be assured at this point I have no romantic, relational interest in Lilly; so while you're busy talking to that blond detective, I'll be happy to "settle" for Kat and Alexandra. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Nov 20, 2008 20:45:19 GMT -5
...what is the title 'triple threat' referring to? Could it be this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Threat_(game_show)"Triple Threat was an American television game show that pitted two teams of three generations against each other to test their knowledge of past and present television, movies and music. The show had two versions; one aired in syndication from October 8, 1988 to October 1, 1989, while the other version aired on the BET cable network from September 17, 1992 to September 17, 1993."After all, the episode did challenge us viewers to our knowledge of music. |
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Post by Electrophile on Nov 20, 2008 21:34:36 GMT -5
Wow, who knew this episode would generate so much conversation! I can see where a lot of you are coming from in your assessments of the episode, and after watching it back a few times, I can point out times when I found myself agreeing. I still think it was at best an OK episode, but I don't have nearly the negative opinion about it I had when the episode ended.
For example, I found the scene where Nadia was singing Free Fallin' as her final project and intercut it with an aria to be a nice homage to her desire to make her father happy and honor her mother, while making HERSELF happy. She found she could do more than just sing opera and wanted to be a true star. I think we all can relate to that desire to make our families happy but also make ourselves happy too. It's important to honor our heritage or the history our family has while at the same time forging a new identity for ourselves and creating our own legacy. I think that's the one thing I took away from this episode that stuck with me the most. In that way I change my opinion of Nadia, she became a very relatable character for me, so much so that just a few days ago I found myself getting into a heated conversation with my father about what I planned on doing in future and it reminded me of the scene between Nadia and her father at the school.
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Post by eduardodelroice on Nov 21, 2008 3:33:10 GMT -5
Thanks RichE and Collider for your answers...
This episode has been controversial.
About Lilly--we still have to wait t see what happens(no spoilers here)
This has been my least fav episode from this season(along w/ Roller Girl) but everyone has diffs POV
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zoé
Desk Clerk III
Posts: 118
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Post by zoé on Nov 21, 2008 6:37:17 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. At first, with the bodyguard on scene and the Russia defection, I thought that ‘threat’ was somehow KGB related ;-) So I’ve looked up « triple threat sing » in Google, and in the first entry: In the musical theatre business different types of performers make up a cast. There are singers, dancers, actors and those who are capable of doing more than one professional discipline. (…)The “triple threat” is someone who can sing, dance and act.In the episode, the Asian girl was the dancing part (and was supposed to help Nadia with the choreography) and Elliot, the head of the drama department, the acting part (with their weird class). Maybe Nadia would have turned out to be a "triple threat" in the showbiz. This has been my least fav episode from this season(along w/ Roller Girl) but everyone has diffs POV Yep, different POV... Roller Girl and Triple Threat are actually the ones I preferred this season. I recall too from the season 5 nominations that you and me had totally opposite tastes. We are consistent  |
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Post by eduardodelroice on Nov 21, 2008 12:29:42 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. At first, with the bodyguard on scene and the Russia defection, I thought that ‘threat’ was somehow KGB related ;-) So I’ve looked up « triple threat sing » in Google, and in the first entry: In the musical theatre business different types of performers make up a cast. There are singers, dancers, actors and those who are capable of doing more than one professional discipline. (…)The “triple threat” is someone who can sing, dance and act.In the episode, the Asian girl was the dancing part (and was supposed to help Nadia with the choreography) and Elliot, the head of the drama department, the acting part (with their weird class). Maybe Nadia would have turned out to be a "triple threat" in the showbiz. This has been my least fav episode from this season(along w/ Roller Girl) but everyone has diffs POV Yep, different POV... Roller Girl and Triple Threat are actually the ones I preferred this season. I recall too from the season 5 nominations that you and me had totally opposite tastes. We are consistent I cant remember well the nominations, sorry This season. I have loved Wednesays women, true calling(tie) One small step and shore leave The reason why I did not like RG and TT is because the case is too simple... I need something complicated What do you recall about season 5? I stated i HATED Thick as thieves |
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zoé
Desk Clerk III
Posts: 118
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Post by zoé on Nov 22, 2008 4:44:19 GMT -5
I cant remember well the nominations, sorry This season. I have loved Wednesays women, true calling(tie) One small step and shore leave The reason why I did not like RG and TT is because the case is too simple... I need something complicated What do you recall about season 5? I stated i HATED Thick as thieves I am not sure it is appropriate to talk about this in this thread. I have sent you a PM |
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Post by stillmanfan on Apr 19, 2010 15:42:54 GMT -5
I thought it was a good episode. Even though Vera had some good parts it just didn't seem like a Vera focused episode cause he didn't do any interrogations.
Loved the banter with Kat/Jefferies, then Kat/Scotty.
I thought it was maybe the father just cause he seemed to be closed minded.
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and i loved it.
