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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 15:03:03 GMT -5
During tonight's chat I will mention more about ASL. It's great I still remember the signs after taking the class just six years ago.
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Mar 31, 2008 16:02:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure what to make of this episode. I thought it was good, but I guess I was expecting it to "wow" me a bit more (with it being the first of the new batch of post-strike episodes). It just didn't. That said, I have always been curious about Deaf culture, and I have thought sign language such a beautiful language (I think I now wish I might have learned it at some point in my life). Thanks very much, samanda for the information on both the culture and ASL.  The episode, at least from a visual standpoint, was endearing. I loved watching the language, and I enjoyed the actual 'silence' of some of the scenes. All the guest actors were top drawer. But I don't know ... I just wasn't overly moved by this episode. There wasn't enough Lilly (what was up with her staring at the moon for no apparent reason? LOL!). Kat's subplot still seems out of left field to me (and subsequently seemed to actually interupt the flow of this week's episode). The whole whole let my kid go tie in seemed a little over the top. After two and half years, I don't buy the fact that this girl was a floosy for a night and got screwed over (literally). That said, the fact that she's having a who-am-I-moment ... well, I guess I can only wish Lilly would actually have one of those moments AND do something about it (which Kat did; so, hey, kudos to Kat). Vera stole this episode no doubt. I do enjoy when they always turn the tables on him and call his stodgy ways out onto the carpet. It's funny. All in all, this was just ok/good. Now, next week's ep looks pretty interesting. I hope that's not a deceptive promo, though.  |
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Post by yankee1151 on Mar 31, 2008 16:07:48 GMT -5
This was my issue as well. I liked the fact that this was not one of the more predictable eps (for me) and the performances were excellent. The kid who played Andy was great. I will not pass judgement on the accuracy of the lip reading, ASL, or general portrayal of the deaf community as I know next to nothing about it. It was believable enough in the context of the show, so that's good enough for me.
But really, the fact that this was a cold case at all (as in, Andy was categorized only as a missing person for two years, and ALL evidence of a murder was missed the first time around) was ridiculous. I can buy that Carlos moved the body and cleaned up - but to be able to EFFECTIVELY clean up all the blood, hide the body, the murder weapon, and his own bloody clothing, without being seen, without the "grave" being discovered, without one single drop of blood being found until two years later - eh, no. The Philly PD apart from the CC detectives must be super incompetent. UNLESS, there was some sort of cover up with the school (ie the shady Dean) - then I might have believed it. But Carlos acting alone (in a fit of rage, no less, it's not even like the murder was premeditated giving him time to plan his actions afterward) and getting away with it for as long as he did? Uh uh.
Also, the dad never telling the mom that he signed off on the implant during that whole time was quite hard to swallow, too. But whatevs.
Liked the ep for the most part, though. It did keep me guessing, which is rare. And the dynamics of the deaf vs hearing, particularly with regards to cochular implants was quite interesting.
Liked the bit with Kat and Vera too. I like that Kat has a storyline, period. But is it wrong that every time Veronica appears on screen I just want to take her to the dentist? She would be a cute kid if she had her teeth fixed... and I'm sure I'm going to hell because I am technically dogging a real kid, not a character... but it had to be said.
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Post by scillylove on Mar 31, 2008 16:28:20 GMT -5
Right off the bat I need to ask a question: Were we or were we not supposed to get classical music in this episode? I heard Top 40 hits. Not that I didn't like them or anything, but I was just expecting something else.
I really enjoyed the episode. Although I have never had the opprtunity to learn it, I've always thought ASL was a beautiful language and I enjoyed getting to see a CC episode dedicated to it. In fact, I'm enjoying seeing it more and more on television these days (i.e., the TV series Sue Thomas: F.B.Eye was centered around a deaf woman. And based on a true story). I would try to learn it myself, but considering I do not know anyone who is deaf, the chances of me being able to keep it up are slim to none. But I digress. Thanks samanda for that info on Deaf culture.
This episode also kept me guessing. I sorta wanted it to be the Dean for some reason. She didn't irritate me the way she did some of you, and yet I wanted it to be her. Maybe it's just because I liked the other characters too much, idk.
I loved the Kat/Vera interaction. I like the side that Kat brings out in Vera. Although I think that Kat finally letting Veronica meet her dad at the end was a little cheesy, my happiness at Kat actually getting a storyline trumps it.
Oh, and Signing for Dummies, that was priceless. It wasn't necessarily Vera's signing that I had a problem with, it was when he was able to pick up what the others were saying. In any language, it's easier to learn to speak it yourself than it is to understand what others are saying. That comes with practice, and unless the people you're conversing with talk (or in this case sign) slowly, that's not likely to happen right off the bat. People that are used to using the language are not likely to speak/sign slowly unless you ask them to because they're so comfortable with it. So that was my gripe with the Vera learns sign language thing. But overall I thought it was adorable that he tried, and it made me love his character even more.
Just to clarify, what was the Lilly on the balcony thing about? Was it related to her drama or what? I didn't get it.
Overall, I thought this episode was excellent. A great return for CC.
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mitchy
Desk Clerk II
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Post by mitchy on Mar 31, 2008 16:36:45 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the episode. Yes, there were the usual fudges with deaf people of "Oh they can lip read" but really, for a TV show, they have to do that to keep things moving along. The acting was wonderful, in particular Ryan Lane as Andy; he doesn't appear to have had much acting experience on TV which is a shame, because I thought he was great. If I have a gripe, it's that Vera is getting overused as the "insensitive guy who comes around to the new culture", but kudus to Jeremy Ratchford for keeping Vera as interesting and funny as he does.
Kat's sub-plot was too short but then I'm biased - I like it when they focus on the detectives' personal lives and Kat's one of my favourite characters. I'll settle for the fact they gave Kat a story line at all, although I'm sad we didn't get more details. I already guessed that seeing any of the conversation between Kat and Veronica about her father was waaaay too much to expect. The tie-in between the deaf father's convictions he had to let his son live and Kat's own worries about Veronica was just too hokey even for me but I'll forgive them just for the Kat/Vera conversation. "So you're a parent for five minutes, and you're schoolin' me how to do it?" Well played by Tracie and Jeremy.
Not so much Lily or Scotty this ep, but then I'm not a huge Lily fan (don't hurt me!) so I was pleased to see some of the other detectives in the limelight. Overall, I really like this ep and will be re-watching this one.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 16:51:13 GMT -5
I think I know why Lilly was standing out there on the balcony. Maybe this is a foreshadow of some kind of personal change or just taking in the quietness of the night. Inside of her mind there are probably many deep dark thoughts streaming around.
Maybe Lilly was thinking about the snow after the interview and the quietness it brings.
Therefore this way Lilly is probably trying to clear her head somehow. All in all she looked a lot better and not like a Zombie this time. I was wondering the same why we didn't have too much Lil and Scotty scenes as well. I did like the fact that Vera had clarified that he was still with Toni and becoming closer to Andre.
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Post by TVFan on Mar 31, 2008 17:06:58 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this episode, so I gave it an excellent. Before I get into the reasons why, I wanted to address a few things: Lilly on the balcony - I interpreted that scene to be her imagining trying to "hear with her eyes" as we had just seen Andy talk about in the previous scene's flashback. She was looking up to the sky in the exact same fashion as Andy and Emma had been in that flashback. I thought it was a very well done scene because it showed her dedication to this victim. She really was trying to imagine his world. Vera and the sign language - LOVED this subplot. For me, it's much easier to understand others who use a different language than it is for me to try to speak it myself, so I could relate to Vera's struggles and triumphs with ASL. In the end, though, I was just happy to see him making a serious effort to be a part of the deaf world. He was the only detective who tried to learn ASL. My, we are a nitpicking bunch on this episode! Somehow, I managed to miss the plot holes (completely agree with everything coldfan said in his post), the apparent inaccuracies (I tend to give works of fiction a lot of lee-way for the entertainment factor), and lack of interpretor in every scene (I think that was done to conserve time from a directing stand point), so maybe this is why I enjoyed this one so much. My only small gripe was that Kat's story seemed to end a little prematurely, but that's par for the course with CC's personal stories. Now, what I did like. I felt that the story was very strong. I loved the relationship between Emma and Andy, and how she helped him remember a talent that he thought he lost. My heart broke a little for Carlos. He just wanted to fit in, and he felt that Andy's cochlear implant left him all alone. Lilly's interrogation with Carlos at the end was awesome! It was one of those classic Lilly interrogations, and I hung on every word. Great stuff! On two completely superficial notes, I was so happy that they decided to resurrect the ponytail and I thought Lilly/Kathryn looked AMAZING in this one. Her make-up was a bit toned down (especially in the beginning) and she just looked gorgeous! Welcome back CC! I missed you. |
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coldcasegirl
Lilly Rush
Sleuthing for Clues [/color]
Posts: 2,279
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Post by coldcasegirl on Mar 31, 2008 17:07:41 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this ep! It was more interesting than I expected it to be.
First off, here is what all I loved:
-I loved how Lilly treated Leah like a real suspect, and didn't give in to her and let her off easy
-@ first I was so tiffed at Vera for being so mean, but once he began to learn sign language, he got into his "mr soft & sympathetic" role that he does (he did the EXACT same thing with Brent in "Saving Sammy")
-I loved all of the music! And I KNEW that "Look After You" was gonna be an ending song sometime. I even already said it in a thread WAYY back. The end of the song with Lilly having that look was EXACTLY how I pictured it.
-and I loved how Lilly was looking @ the sky out on the PPD balcony. It just goes to show how invested she gets into her cases.
And DID ANYONE ELSE notice how much KM was GLOWING!!!!? She looked so vivid! I can't even think of the perfect word to explain it, except I guess FLAWLESS!! I was like, wtf, her life sucks cause of what happened in "Stalker" yet she still looks like a million bucks!
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Post by riche on Mar 31, 2008 17:34:17 GMT -5
Lilly on the balcony - I interpreted that scene to be her imagining trying to "hear with her eyes" as we had just seen Andy talk about in the previous scene's flashback. Exactly, I'm surprised no-one else seemed to pick up on that. Seemed kinda obvious to me. I guess that "artistic licence" is lost on some people. Can Jack Bauer really go 24 hours without a toilet break? They could have had the story spread out over a few days/weeks so that the timings worked better, but it's not necessary. Yes, Vera probably wouldn't have been that good at signing after just a few hours (I know nothing about signing) but it was a plot device further enforcing views on Nick. He's a far more thoughtful and considerate guy that he first appears. Can all deaf people read lips, probably not, but it saves time having to suggest an interpreter is involved. Do you want to sit through each question and answer twice? Of course they will do so initially, like when characters speak in a foreign language and have subtitles and then switch to English. It's makes the point and then gets on with it. I think the production team did their homework. They do seem to take these matters seriously. Perhaps fast tracked production process meant some nuances got a little lost. But they got across the idea of (some) deaf people having their own culture and (some) feeling like they belong with their own etc. The implementation of certain aspects may have been streamlined for the sake of the story. Do we see the cops driving from their office to the school or booking a suspect in etc? No, it's just not necessary. Certainly never really got going. In most shows you'd expect it to come back at some point but CC's record on that is not great so I won't be holding my breath. I'd say there was more make up, just less foundation. She had some colour in her cheeks for a change. Good episode generally. Enjoyed Kack/Kick. Not a whole lot of Lilly (there's never enough  ). Nick looked a little too tanned for a Philly cop in winter/spring as well. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 17:45:38 GMT -5
I think this episode kind of angered the deaf community, just by all of the errors. You would think a show like this would have done their homework a little better. I'm not one to bash this show since I love it.
After all this is the first episode after the strike. Sure there was a lot or mistakes but maybe the whole thing of Kat isn't quite done with. Maybe the writers plan to revisit this later on?
I did like the fact that Lilly wasn't a complete Zombie, kind of refreshing not to see her looking like that.
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Post by riche on Mar 31, 2008 18:02:07 GMT -5
What you see as errors I see as some necessary short cuts.
Inevitably there will be some resentment in the deaf community due to the portrayal a deaf person killing another because of his deafness. Are they going to say it's never happened? Someone will always try and gain political capital from it. It happens all the time. And fair play to them. CC has covered so many issues (racism, transgender issues, the suffragette movement etc. etc.) and done so without judging, but telling the stories of people that do.
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Post by scillylove on Mar 31, 2008 18:07:33 GMT -5
maybe the whole thing of Kat isn't quite done with. Maybe the writers plan to revisit this later on? I hope so. Like I said, it was a little cheesy, the way they left it in this ep, so it'd be nice to see a follow through. But then, we are talking about CC, aren't we?  |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 18:08:25 GMT -5
I know but I'm kind of disappointed still. I knew we don't like every episode but I still have very high hopes for this show.
We've seen so many different stories and there is four more to come so that leaves the door open to better written episodes.
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Post by yankee1151 on Mar 31, 2008 18:15:11 GMT -5
Ha. Maybe that's why I don't watch 24. I don't know, I can't help nitpicking. I watch a lot of "true crime" shows, and when I see something that totally wouldn't happen in reality it kind of bugs me. Artistic licence has a limit, which, when crossed, compromises the story somewhat (for me). For the most part, it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the show if the basic plot, writing, acting, etc. is good. But if I'm analyzing the ep enough to post on a message board about it, I'm gonna point out the errors as I see them. I also think that in this particular case, there were small things that could have easily been done to make it more believable. It's harder when it's a really old case - I always have issues with those - but obviously a good bit of disbelief has to be suspended for the story to be told and the case solved. This one I think could have easily been made more believable if they had a)classified it as a murder from early on (having found SOME piece of evidence, just not able to come up with a doer at that time), and b)had another guilty party (likely the Dean) involved in a coverup so that the impression that Carlos got away with a sloppy, impulsive murder on his own for two years wasn't given. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm probably in the minority when it comes to being bothered by such things. I do realize that scripted dramas are not necessarily supposed to reflect reality. Just a personal pet peeve I guess. But yeah... Lilly looked really really good in this one. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 18:25:05 GMT -5
Most people take this thing seriously, I guess they want everything to be accerate. What Crime drama show is so acurrate in every single detail?
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Post by yankee1151 on Mar 31, 2008 18:39:09 GMT -5
I have no idea... CC is the only one I watch. Like I said, I watch a lot of true crime stuff, so sometimes when I watch CC - which is fictional but not supposed to be fantasy - I'm irked by some of the stuff that's just flat out unbelievable. Of course artistic licence is necessary to a degree, but there are certain things I find hard to overlook. Most of it I can, and do overlook because a)I understand why it was done in many instances and b)I love other aspects of the show. Again, just a personal pet peeve, not saying anyone else's opinions are less valid.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 18:47:28 GMT -5
I agree about that, but being CC is the only show I do watch on TV. I think one episode being not accurate isn't going to ruin everything. There are part of this episode I did like especially how the girl signed " Love you" to Andy's spririt at the end. The song was pretty good as well .
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Post by yankee1151 on Mar 31, 2008 18:53:34 GMT -5
Of course not, for me either. Like I said, I actually liked this ep, overall. There are eps that I don't like all that much and won't go out of my way to watch again (this wasn't one of them) but regardless, I still love the show. And Kathryn. |
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samanda
Lilly Rush
Spoiler Queen [/center]
Posts: 3,243
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Post by samanda on Mar 31, 2008 19:45:48 GMT -5
I think this episode kind of angered the deaf community, just by all of the errors. You would think a show like this would have done their homework a little better. I'm not one to bash this show since I love it. I wouldn't make any assumptions about the way the Deaf community feels about this episode. Sorry if I sound extremely blunt or rude, but it seems as though you've learned the ASL language, but not Deaf culture. Deaf people are not that shallow. What you see as errors I see as some necessary short cuts. Inevitably there will be some resentment in the deaf community due to the portrayal a deaf person killing another because of his deafness. Are they going to say it's never happened? Someone will always try and gain political capital from it. It happens all the time. And fair play to them. CC has covered so many issues (racism, transgender issues, the suffragette movement etc. etc.) and done so without judging, but telling the stories of people that do. Cold Case does generally deal with issues really well. I wouldn't say that this episode would even bring up resentment about a deaf person killing another. LO:CI did an episode like that, and I know a Deaf person who thought the episode was really good in its portrayal (not to say that one person represents the whole culture and community, but still). |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Mar 31, 2008 20:11:32 GMT -5
I did acutally learn deaf culture and respect it. It's a beautiful culture as well.
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The episode, at least from a visual standpoint, was endearing. I loved watching the language, and I enjoyed the actual 'silence' of some of the scenes. All the guest actors were top drawer.
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