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Post by ewka on Nov 25, 2005 13:54:19 GMT -5
Hm... maybe it's because I'm tired today after the whole week, but I didn't like this episode... I've just seen it and now I am listening to Rocket Man and If You Could Read My Mind and these songs are great. But I somehow wasn't interested in watching CC this time :/ Maybe I'll say something better when I repeat this someday.
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ruda
Lilly Rush
The Lilly and Ray Official Member
I can always make you smile =]
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Post by ruda on Nov 25, 2005 16:02:45 GMT -5
ewka... you need some rest and relax girl!
this ep is realy good
I love this ep like all CC ;D
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom 
I'm not her Ho [/b][/color]err.. Rerun Retard Ho [/b][/color]
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Post by Disasterfreak on Nov 26, 2005 17:06:27 GMT -5
I hate to be a party pooper but this episode didn't really do it for me either. I just watched it a few minutes ago. Maybe because I don't carry the Vietnam experience around as part of my collective past (I'm not american) or maybe because of technical difficulties (my comp doesn't synch images with voices, some of the actors were mumblers and I couldn't really understand what they said). The first 35 minutes or so really dragged for me, and that's not usual. I did think the last 10 minutes made up for it though. Awesome scene with Carl and Daniel, very emotional, and great ending montage.
I did enjoy hearing about Stillman, but somehow this wasn't as personal as I'd hoped.
I'll post again after I watch the ep on TV. Maybe watching it properly will help me understand it better.
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Post by eurache on Jan 10, 2006 13:22:46 GMT -5
If you wish to review what was discussed on our Chat Room, please go to the link below:  "Honor" Chat Run Down |
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samanda
Lilly Rush
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Post by samanda on Jun 22, 2006 23:10:13 GMT -5
Re-Air Date: 7/9/06 (SUNDAY)
Time Slot: 8:00 PM-9:00 PM EST
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on Jul 9, 2006 20:40:22 GMT -5
HOLY COW!!  What a FANTASTIC episode!! Totally, completely, FANTASTIC!! This is the kind of story that I think only Cold Case can tell because of both its gutsyness and because of the show's flashback format. I don't think it's easy or even possible for many other shows to tell stories like the one here. I hope we see more episodes like this from Craig Turk and Paris Barclay. |
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Post by r2k on Jul 9, 2006 22:05:59 GMT -5
This was a definitely a time period episode only Cold Case could do. The characters in this episode are memorable as is the victim. This is a Season 1 type of episode. Seasons 2 and 3 have had many of them, but they've also done some fluff episodes as well. All the performances were great in this one. I forgot it was on and was lucky to catch the last twenty minutes. The confession scene is among the best in the my opinion. And Lily was Lily at her best.
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by boxman on Jul 10, 2006 1:31:51 GMT -5
This episode's opening scene is among the most powerful ones I've seen. ... I also wanted to note that this was one of the BEST soundtracks that I have ever heard in an ep! Man, so many great hits! "Rocket Man", "Draggin' The Line", "If You Could Read My Mind." Rocking! Yeah, really GREAT use of music! One obvious interpretation of the song "Rocket Man" is the isolation and loneliness that heroes feel from others when people put them on pedestals. The use of this song set me up to wonder what was on Carl's mind. "Big boys don't cry," the line that young Ned tells his father is also a line that's repeated in 10cc's song, "I'm Not In Love". Both the song and the moment it is used in the episode indicate true emotions being hidden. The song has been covered many times, and the original 10cc version was used in "Look Again", the Cold Case's premiere episode. ...I do like Gordon Lightfoot and thought that was an excellent selection for the closing song. Unbelievable use of the song! I think it's worth posting the lyrics here: If you could read my mind love
What a tale my thoughts could tell
Just like an old time movie
'Bout a ghost from a wishin' well
In a castle dark or a fortress strong
With chains upon my feet
You know that ghost is me
And I will never be set free
As long as I'm a ghost that you can't see
If I could read your mind love
What a tale your thoughts could tell
Just like a paperback novel
The kind that drugstores sell
When you reach the part where the heartaches come
The hero would be me
But heroes often fail
And you won't read that book again
Because the ending's just too hard to take
{instrumental intro}
I'd walk away like a movie star
Who gets burned in a three way script
Enter number two
A movie queen to play the scene
Of bringing all the good things out in me
But for now love, let's be real
I never thought I could act this way
And I've got to say that I just don't get it
I don't know where we went wrong
But the feelin's gone
And I just can't get it back
If you could read my mind love
What a tale my thoughts could tell
Just like an old time movie
'Bout a ghost from a wishin' well
In a castle dark or a fortress strong
With chains upon my feet
But stories always end
And if you read between the lines
You'll know that I'm just tryin' to understand
The feelings that you lack
I never thought I could feel this way
And I've got to say that I just don't get it
I don't know where we went wrong
But the feeling's gone
And I just can't get it backVery poignant when you think of how as Carl is asked to leave Rex's funeral, Carl says how he died already, that he was a ghost. In that flashback, you could see all the fellow officers observing the confrontation between Ruth (Rex's widow), and Carl. Stillman: But who commits suicide by shooting himself in the stomach?Interestingly enough, Japanese samurais cut their stomachs to kill themselves in the Seppuku ritual to restore their honor towards their fellow warriors. Carl's form of death must obviously be an allusion to this honor ritual. As always she looked amazing and I loved her reactions to Carl's alcoholic wife. She knew all the right things to say like with the coffee thing. There were some really lovely close up shots of her too. , did you like that look on Lilly's face when Carl's wife said: "I'd rather remember Carl as he was before. He was strong. He was a hero. I was his wife." I thought it was hilarious!! Here's Carl's widow, who defines herself by the man she marries, saying this to Lilly, who's a completely independant career woman! To me, it was like a humorous play on the movie "An Officer And A Gentleman". They did that camera thing again that they did in the first ep when Stillman, Lilly and Scotty were talking; you know the camera moving round in a circle thing. I thought that worked really well. I was getting dizzy!  Just about the moment when I began to think, "Okay, I'm gettig a bit tizzy over this effect", the scene ends...and the camera is squarely on Stillman! So yeah...Wow! A great ending to the scene! ...It was so nice to have a Stillman-heavy episode. ... John Finn did an excellent job last night. I LOVED his interrogation scene with Ken. He played it so well by joking around with him in the beginning and moving to outrage at Ken's hideous lie. I didn't believe Ken had the guts to kill anyone, but I still enjoyed Stillman's interrogation. The guy needed to hear about what he did from someone who really went to Vietnam and saw the terrible sites first hand. The episode managed to give us more on Stillman without making the entire episode about it. ... All through the episode, I wondered why Stillman downplayed his Vietnam service. On one hand, I wondered if he was a "humble guy"?? Or was he "troubled"?? Towards the end, I had to conclude that as a police lieutenant, it had to be humility. On one long car trip, I listened to Tom Brokaw's "The Greatest Generation Speaks", and Stillman's modesty somehow made me think more of Americans after WWII, than after Vietnam (which is a compliment to his character). I wondered why the American Flag on Ken's uniform was reversed (with the stars on the right side), but apparently on military uniforms, this is correct for the right-side sleeve. See this article. Still, its funny that Ken's security guard uniform mimics a military uniform. Rather appropriate for the character. Ken uses the phrase "winning friends and influencing people", which hints to the book by Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends & Influence People". Was this meant to hint that Ken was a smooth-talker?? The one weak spot to this episode was the completely not needed pot storyline. They barely developed it, it didn't lead to anything, advance the story, or reveal the killer. In fact, there was only a blink-and-you-miss-it mention in the final scenes when Carl took it away from Daniel in an effort to keep him off drugs. Not sure why they put it in there in the first place. One obscure interpretation of the song "Rocket Man" is that its about drug abuse. The shape of a rocket is similar to a hypodermic needle, and the lyrics "And I'm gonna be high, As a kite by then" plus a few other lines are supposed to reference the experience of being under the influence!! I got this tidbit about the song from this page. The site is rather interesting, and has an entry for "I'm Not In Love" too. Hm... maybe it's because I'm tired today after the whole week, but I didn't like this episode... I've just seen it and now I am listening to Rocket Man and If You Could Read My Mind and these songs are great. But I somehow wasn't interested in watching CC this time... I hate to be a party pooper but this episode didn't really do it for me either. I just watched it a few minutes ago. Maybe because I don't carry the Vietnam experience around as part of my collective past (I'm not american) or maybe because of technical difficulties .... Hmm... Very interesting that the case didn't interest the two of you. I think the episode was much less about American war veterans or POWs, and much more about the concept of "Honor". Honor has it's own wikipedia.org entry.... As used in this episode, its the point in one's life when an individual can choose between something that satisfies themselves at the expense of others in the group, or giving it up to maintain harmony with the group. Perhaps the two of you have been fortunate enough to not encounter such decisions?? I hate to sound like a preachy old fart, but don't bet on living life without facing such moments.. I think everyone does at some point. I certainly could relate to the conflicts raised in the story and that's why this episode was so powerful to me. --- Interesting touch added in this episode by the writer. Ken didn't belong to any actual group--he only pretended that he was a POW. Without comrades to be responsible to, he didn't have any problems about showing dishonor towards Carl. He therefore went ahead and dated Carl's wife and lied to people about who he was. Also interesting touch is Scotty's little disrespect towards Ken: Ken asks Scotty to step on the side, and Scotty ignores him. Sorta like a foreshadow of Scotty's bit of disrespect towards authority we see later in this season?? |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by boxman on Jul 10, 2006 1:58:25 GMT -5
...I forgot it was on and was lucky to catch the last twenty minutes. The confession scene is among the best in the my opinion. And Lily was Lily at her best. Yeah! Now this was a great Lilly interrogation. Even the brief 1972/2005 flash between young and old Daniel yelling "Don't talk about my dad!" was done really good. |
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Post by Naj on Jul 10, 2006 8:34:15 GMT -5
The Stillman/Ken interrogation is one of the best I've seen in the series.
I agree, boxman, putting Ken in there as totally unrelated to the case but suspect was very clever. They have done that before. It's a nice little way to trick the viewers. Some of the flashback shots I didn't care for like the from the ceiling shots but other than that it was great. The last 15 minutes I was glued to the screen.
I never made those connections but I can see that very much now that you have pointed it out.
I thought the transitions to each new scene and dialog was well done for the story. I guess that's the writer/director's expertise showing here?
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Post by mikencelia on Jul 10, 2006 9:27:11 GMT -5
Didn't care for this episode much. I'm not a big fan of Viet Nam themed things. The men and women who were there deserve tremendous thanks and honor, but I never got into the whole Viet Nam thing.
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LillyKat
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Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Jul 10, 2006 11:56:24 GMT -5
Tuned into this re-run last night, and I really enjoyed the ep. I enjoyed the Stillman-centric focus. He is becoming my second favorite character, so a case that brings him out of "boss" mode is really enjoyable. I think probably what stuck out for me, as many have already stated, was the interrogation scene between Stillman and Ken. For me, it actually came across as being rather Lilly-esque in its cleverness, power and poignancy. It made me wonder, from a fictional character development/backstory standpoint, if Lilly has become so effective in her interrogations as a result of working with Stillman (or vice versa) - arguably sort of the mentor/father-figure aspect, but he's also just a pretty darn good cop (like her). Throughout the whole scene, I found myself saying, 'Lilly would do that. She'd also do that ... and that.' He starts out friendly (the set-up); cleverly takes out the gun and sets it in front of Ken, then gets up, walks around and sits down right smack dab next to Ken (getting ready to break him); rips into him, then leaves him to deal with the shame of his actions. While we never really see Lilly yell (raise her voice, yes, but outright yell, no), there was a similar pattern/vibe that seemed to connect Lilly to Stillman in that scene that impressed me. And, after seeing this scene, the other detectives (while holding their own) do not, to me, seem to be in the same league for interrogations. (*NOTE: Am still catching up on eps, so I may come across one that will make me revise this ... but as of now, there is a dotted line between Lilly and Stillman.  ) All in all, I thought the storyline was quite moving. The actor who played Carl was quite good - I thought he balanced both the physical and emotional trauma of the POW experience in a tangible, believable way. You really felt for not only what he had physically been through, but the leftover guilt for having been mentally "broken." I noted Paris Barclay directed this ep ... when I used to watch NYPD Blue, I enjoyed all the eps he helmed ... glad that has carried over to CC. |
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Post by TVFan on Jul 10, 2006 13:32:19 GMT -5
This is a great observation, LillyKat! I've always loved the Lilly/Stillman student/teacher dynamic, so I love that you implied here that Lilly has learned to be such a skilled interrogator because she apprenticed under Stillman. They do have similar interrogation styles. They both tend to be more cerebral versus the others' tendency to be more reactionary and hot-headed. I know you haven't seen "Mind Hunter" yet, so all I will say is that this becomes very apparent in that episode. And I never thought about it before, but now looking back, Lilly and Stillman dealt with that situation very similarly as well.
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Jul 10, 2006 14:44:31 GMT -5
This is a great observation, LillyKat! I've always loved the Lilly/Stillman student/teacher dynamic, so I love that you implied here that Lilly has learned to be such a skilled interrogator because she apprenticed under Stillman. They do have similar interrogation styles. They both tend to be more cerebral versus the others' tendency to be more reactionary and hot-headed. I know you haven't seen "Mind Hunter" yet, so all I will say is that this becomes very apparent in that episode. And I never thought about it before, but now looking back, Lilly and Stillman dealt with that situation very similarly as well. I am really enjoying the Lilly/Stillman relationship, too, TVFan. I've recently wondered if Lilly would ever be promoted to take over the squad at some point down the road. I've noticed in certain eps from Season 3, you see Lilly with Stillman almost working together as if they were partners, sort of steering the investigation(s) whilst everyone else still seems to be doing the "beat cop" work. Of course, Lilly still does hit the pavement, too ... but, there have been enough Lilly/Stillman solos to maybe suggest that she is being groomed to, perhaps one day, run the squad. I don't think I want that today, though. Still like Lil out n' about on the case, and Stillman as "boss." And, I actually have seen Mind Hunters - it's my favorite ep thus far. ;D I agree the interrogation of George by both Lilly and Stillman was very similar ... just can't beat Lilly vs. George ... a classic. |
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Post by witchykitty on Jul 10, 2006 14:46:59 GMT -5
All in all, I thought the storyline was quite moving. The actor who played Carl was quite good - I thought he balanced both the physical and emotional trauma of the POW experience in a tangible, believable way. You really felt for not only what he had physically been through, but the leftover guilt for having been mentally "broken." I agree, I thought it was pretty good. I didn't get what Ken was doing. What a weirdo. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by boxman on Jul 11, 2006 0:31:05 GMT -5
... after seeing this scene, the other detectives (while holding their own) do not, to me, seem to be in the same league for interrogations.... When watching this, I was trying to figure out when Jeffries came in on the observation side of the two-way mirror. He wasn't visible at the very beginning, and seemed to enter sometime about when Stillman produced the gun. I kinda got the feeling that Jeffries knows about Stillman's style, and wanted to watch the guy in action. You know, wanting to watch a pro do his thing. ...I've recently wondered if Lilly would ever be promoted to take over the squad at some point down the road. I've noticed in certain eps from Season 3, you see Lilly with Stillman almost working together as if they were partners, sort of steering the investigation(s) whilst everyone else still seems to be doing the "beat cop" work. Of course, Lilly still does hit the pavement, too ... but, there have been enough Lilly/Stillman solos to maybe suggest that she is being groomed to, perhaps one day, run the squad. I don't think I want that today, though. Still like Lil out n' about on the case, and Stillman as "boss." Good observation! That too seems like an obvious evolution of the series to me. Now do you have any idea about when this is all going to happen?? This episode definitely seems to me to be a brick in the road to that direction too. |
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Post by TVFan on Jul 11, 2006 11:32:11 GMT -5
I agree with both you and boxman, LillyKat. Lilly does seem to be the obvious choice to fill Stillman's shoes when he retires someday (hopefully, not any time soon). They partnered up during S1's "The Plan," and it worked really well. Sorry about the "Mind Hunter" misstep, LillyKat. I meant to type I don't know if you've seen "Mind Hunter," but somehow completely goofed.  Plus, you and I have had conversations in the "Favorite Eps" thread about that ep. I swear, sometimes I think I'm half asleep when I write some of this stuff!  |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by boxman on Jul 12, 2006 16:35:07 GMT -5
... Lilly does seem to be the obvious choice to fill Stillman's shoes when he retires someday (hopefully, not any time soon). They partnered up during S1's "The Plan," and it worked really well.... You know, come to think of it, the scene where Stillman and Vera are walking into the Philly PD headquarters and bump into Kat seems to support this idea. Stillman was very interested in Kat's long-term career plans... Maybe at some point in time he had a similar conversation with Lilly, and that's why she was brought there from "North"?? |
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Disasterfreak
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by Disasterfreak on Jul 17, 2006 23:25:25 GMT -5
I hate to be a party pooper but this episode didn't really do it for me either. I just watched it a few minutes ago. Maybe because I don't carry the Vietnam experience around as part of my collective past (I'm not american) or maybe because of technical difficulties (my comp doesn't synch images with voices, some of the actors were mumblers and I couldn't really understand what they said). The first 35 minutes or so really dragged for me, and that's not usual. I did think the last 10 minutes made up for it though. Awesome scene with Carl and Daniel, very emotional, and great ending montage. I did enjoy hearing about Stillman, but somehow this wasn't as personal as I'd hoped. I'll post again after I watch the ep on TV. Maybe watching it properly will help me understand it better. Hmm... I may have to eat my words. Accidentally caught a rerun of this ep today and, watching it properly, it really is a good episode. Case-wise, at least. Nothing new in character development except for Stillman´s 'Nam past, which I found exceptionally well done. Nothing over the top. Poor Carl, I felt for him. No one can hold on forever. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
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Post by boxman on Jul 18, 2006 5:22:37 GMT -5
Some of the flashback shots I didn't care for like the from the ceiling shots but other than that it was great. You're talking about the scene where Carl and his wife are together in the bedroom, correct?? Quite often, a camera shot from the ceiling or sky looking downward to the characters is supposed to connote the spiritual element of a story for the given scene. Most often, you will see this top-to-down angle used after a person dies to underline the fact that their spirit is leaving a dead body and (supposedly) rising to heaven. That use of the top-to-bottom camera angle was used in a sort of way when they showed Carl lying dead on the road. (More later on this.) At other times, this top-to-bottom camera angle can be used to imply God looking down from Heaven to Earth at an important moment in a person's life. That is what I thought the ceiling-to-floor camera shot was meant to imply the first time I saw that bedroom scene. After watching the show and knowing its outcome, I think it's meant to imply another thing: The spirits of dead POWs observing Carl about to enjoy a physical, carnal moment with his wife. In addition to the ceiling-to-floor angle, there are several other moments in that bedroom scene where the camera is looking into the room from windows and other strange angles that seem to imply the two are being observed by "spiritual voyeurs". Mirrors are also sometimes used symbolically to represent the boundary between the physical and spiritual world. (Think of how many times in movies a person sees a ghost in a mirror, or a person looks into a mirror and sees another side of their personality.) This scene also contained a mirror, and it's reflection was used very effectively at the pivotal moment when Janet sees Carl's pain. Without knowing Carl's secret, the first time one watches this scene, the viewer is led to think that it is simply Carl's aching arms that is causing him to grimace as he's holding his wife. When you know of how he dishonored himself to get there--how his act of treason was paid for by the lives of POWs before and after him--the grimace you see in the bedroom mirror is now obviously partially caused by the torment in Carl's soul. There's a lot more than just a lover's quarrel at the end of the scene. Carl has to leave the room and go for a walk partly because of the guilt he's feeling towards the sacrifices other POWs made. He can't enjoy being physically with his wife and enjoy being intimate with her, knowing that his freedom was paid by other people's freedoms. It is as if at the very moment Carl is about to enjoy the physical beauty of his wife, spirits of dead POWs whispered into Carl's mind, "What about us, Carl?" So it's a very cool and sophisticated symbolism to have filmed that moment of Janet discovering Carl's pain through a mirror. Another interesting hint at "spiritual voyerism" is in the opening scenes of the episode. When Carl enters the living room, note how he is framed by the leaves of a plant. At first, it seems to imply the eye-level view of Carl's son as he sees his dad for the first time. But Carl's son is only briefly behind the plant in the scene. And look at Carl's eyes as he's talking to Ned. His eyes are not looking at the camera. That angle of looking at Carl (and later, his wife) from behind the plant is from someone else's point-of-view.... someone in that room who is not physically visible at all. Try re-watching that opening scene, imagining that it is filmed from the first-person view. Its rather creepy, especially how the transition between the livingroom and the street where Carl lays dead just sweeps off, then it is filmed like a person walking up to dead Carl on the street. (By the way, Carl and Janet's livingroom contain a lot of objects that contain plant patterns. Is the way the opening scene is shot behind plants, and the abundance of plants patterns in the living room supposed to hint at the jungles of Vietnam?? Like how soldiers squatted behind plants to conceal themselves in combat and jungle warfare?? Hmmm.....) Carl's statement, "I'm already a ghost" underlines this spiritual viewpoint of the episode. It indicates Carl understands the spiritual debt and "bad karma" he accumulated for the advance he took for his freedom. Anyway, Naj, I find that it's in these unusual visual aspects that a bunch of the show's metaphorical content is contained in; for example, the unusual camera angles in this scene, and the unusual angles in "Hubris" that LillyKat noticed too. That's why I'm rather certain that the opening shot of the catwalks in "Detention" is definitely supposed to be a "V"--the show rarely films the Philly PD headquarters from that angle. Actually, I thought Ken's character was rather essential in presenting other aspects of the human virtue we call "Honor". Most people cannot relate to a POW's experience, nor to the Vietnam era. So it makes sense that this episode had a sub-plot, which was Ken and Janet's affair. Cheating in a relationship is the type of dishonor most people will experience in life. Ken and Janet's affair plays a key role in bringing the concept of "Honor" (or actually, "Dishonor") closer to the everyday viewer. (Cold Case is rather interesting to me in how it often uses "opposites" and "negatives" to make a point. Here, they used an affair and an "anti-hero" to portray the importance of Honor in human relationships, and in this past week's rebroadcast of "Hubris", they had Latino criminals named "Jesus"....) An interesting underlying message at the end of the episode seems to be that an individual is better off when belonging to a group or organization because of the human virtue "Honor". Ken and Carl were both dishonorable men; however, the two had different destinies. Carl, who belonged to a "band of brothers" and to a family of a wife and son, was eventually forgiven for his act of dishonor. Even Stillman and Lilly, who didn't even know the guy, went with his wife and son to visit his grave. Ken, in contrast, didn't belong to a fraternity of others like him, nor did he have a family. His dishonorable act won't be forgiven by anyone since he's a loner. He could only look down in shame as he descended the elevator. (Often in film, a person descending in an elevator or escalator usually symbolizes that person entering purgatory or hell, either real or self-perceived.) The Stillman & Lilly moment at the cemetery too, seems like a symbolically important moment in the series as the elder cop shows the junior how important the value of Honor is in police and any other uniformed work: www.njlawman.com/Wanted/Philly%20Patch.jpgThis is a very interesting shift in POV, as the series started Lilly-centric and is turning more ensemble-oriented, as we later see in the season.... |
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Just about the moment when I began to think, "Okay, I'm gettig a bit tizzy over this effect", the scene ends...and the camera is squarely on Stillman! So yeah...Wow! A great ending to the scene!
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