Ep. 5.02 That Woman

[boxman]

myril said:

Giving this episode an excellent, a strong case story and a good blending with personal stuff. Hm, guess boxman's ideas are working on me now, musing about possible subtles, deeper meanings of sin and surpression in this episode and former picking up on Christian and other symbolism.

You can thank the Reverend about pointing out the "contrasting similarity" of this episode's storyline and the parable about Jesus and the adulteress woman.

myril said:

Oh, and love the little moment with Kat and her daughter in the end montage. LOL. It's nice to have a funny but still thoughtful moment after such a heavy episode.

It seems to me that Kat and Vernonca's mother/daughter moment was put in there to provide a contrasting image to Sheila and Carrie's relationship. I really can't think of Kat as anything less than an ideal, role-model single mother; whereas Sheila fell quite short of being an ideal mom, as shown by her inability to instill self-confidence in her daughter Carrie.

Myril, I'm not sure if you (or the show's other non-US viewers) are aware of this, but Mackenzie Phillips (the actress who played Sheila Swett), is widely known here for her role as a daughter in the 1970s-80s sitcom "One Day at a Time". This show was rather groundbreaking back-in-the-day because it portrayed a divorced woman successfully raising two rather wholesome teenage daughters. So it's a bit of a twist to see Mackenzie in a role like the one she played in this episode. It's similar to the role-twist Meredith Baxter played as Ellen Rush, versus her previous character of Elyse Keaton in "Family Ties".

[myril]

boxman said:

myril said:

Oh, and love the little moment with Kat and her daughter in the end montage. LOL. It's nice to have a funny but still thoughtful moment after such a heavy episode.

It seems to me that Kat and Vernonca's mother/daughter moment was put in there to provide a contrasting image to Sheila and Carrie's relationship. I really can't think of Kat as anything less than an ideal, role-model single mother; whereas Sheila fell quite short of being an ideal mom, as shown by her inability to instill self-confidence in her daughter Carrie.

Don't agree about your last point. Carrie had self-confidence. Yup, she felt lonely at times, unsure because others seemed more to notice her body than her as a person, but most teenagers feel uncertain especially about that. Though I said that she acted a little naiv at times, don't think she acted out of low self-esteem. And a good self-esteem is basical for a good self-confidence (some maybe would say it's more or less the same even).

And, thinking more about it, don't agree either with showing Kat as a contrast to Sheila. Working in a job with a lot of risks, having to do with criminals, being away at any time of day and even nights doesn't make Kat an ideal mother, does it? Even considering that a single mother doesn't have much of a choice but to work, still you can question why she's not looking for getting some deskjob from 9-5. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that way, but it's like some people think.

[Naj]

I think this is a good point. Lilly was drinking in Beautiful Lilttle Fool drunk on the phone to Kite because she was messed up.

Let's see: Season 4 - Had a boyfriend Joseph who dumped her, Ray left, Mother shows up alcohlic -- stirs up childhood memories of neglect and anger, mother moves in and dies, Lilly gets shot. Now Lilly's having PTSD and realizes how alone she is. All a reason to drink.

Another case of not understanding someone elses shoes (her mothers) until confronted with your own life challenges

xuchilbara said:

Or it would make perfect sense since those with alcoholic parents are more likely to become alcoholics themselves. My mom hardly touches beer, because her father was an alcoholic and she fears that she may also have the inclination to be one too.

[boxman]

myril said:

Don't agree about your last point. Carrie had self-confidence. Yup, she felt lonely at times, unsure because others seemed more to notice her body than her as a person, but most teenagers feel uncertain especially about that. Though I said that she acted a little naiv at times, don't think she acted out of low self-esteem. And a good self-esteem is basical for a good self-confidence (some maybe would say it's more or less the same even).

I can see your point about distinguishing between Carrie's naivete and her self-confidence/self-esteem. And if this story took place somewhere else, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But with Philadelphia being a city made up primarily of tough, working-class people and neighborhoods, it's hard for me to see Carrie as naive. In my view, many teenagers here do have the experience to know what to do in order to deal with a person such as Jerry Wood. Most here (both female and male) would never have allowed a wisearse like him to continue with his remarks for as long as he did in the opening scene. Certainly, after the second or third comment he made, most would've lashed back threateningly at him--swearing profusely and even showing the inclination to physically harm him, even if he had a physical advantage. So while kids elsewhere might be inexperienced with how to handle certain situations presented in the episode, I'd say that it's more-or-less common knowledge here that if you don't stop someone harassing you early on, you'll only continue to be disrespected, abused, and picked on. People of all ages and both genders here are quick to stand up for themselves against SOBs like Jerry; so when Carrie put up a faint reaction to his harassment, it's hard for me to identify her reaction as anything but weak. When she continued to maintain contact with a guy that disrespected her in public (and didn't stop to think that there's better guys than him in the world), it's hard for me to feel she was confident of herself or had good self-esteem. Girls who are confident and have strong self-esteem hold their heads up and walk away from guys like Jerry--not return to make out with them--even if it means being lonely while waiting for a better guy. In this city, many know well enough to do just that!

And, thinking more about it, don't agree either with showing Kat as a contrast to Sheila. Working in a job with a lot of risks, having to do with criminals, being away at any time of day and even nights doesn't make Kat an ideal mother, does it? Even considering that a single mother doesn't have much of a choice but to work, still you can question why she's not looking for getting some deskjob from 9-5. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that way, but it's like some people think.

Hmm... I don't see how being a cop necessarily prevents a person from being a good parent. Certainly, it's been shown that Kat does a lot for Veronica and makes time for her whenever she can. Remember how she asked Stillman to keep her off on Wednesday nights? How she brought flowers to V's dance recital? How she was bugged about a guy hanging out at the library? And while it's hard for any cop to work 9-5 hours, I've always felt her request to Stillman to transfer into the Cold Case department, was to enable her to work 9-5 hours more regularly. Don't many of these cold case interviews take place during "normal" business hours when people are at work?? Certainly, her hours in the Cold Case department must be better for her as a single mom than when she was on the front lines at Narcotics, don't you think?? Keep in mind too that being a detective requires a college degree. I'm not sure how someone who likes police work and who's invested four years in college will find it easy to give up their job to work at a desk for eight hours!!

[myril]

boxman said:

Girls who are confident and have strong self-esteem hold their heads up and walk away from guys like Jerry--not return to make out with them--even if it means being lonely while waiting for a better guy. In this city, many know well enough to do just that!

I'm pretty sure, in some places people might know better than that. But actually, don't think it always shows a high self-esteem in general. And we're talking about teenagers. But let's say, we simply disagree in this. Maybe I'm judging by my own experience.

boxman said:

Hmm... I don't see how being a cop necessarily prevents a person from being a good parent.

Neither do I, but I know people who would question it. If they accept that you don't hurry to find the next guy to take care, they at least expect, that you're not so selfish, to do a job you invested much, but think of your kid and do a job without carrying around a gun.
And what did we get to know about Carrie's mom? Besides that she was telling her daughter, that she shouldn't be ashamed of having the body of a woman, is smoking and still celebrates the birthday of her daughter - not much I would say. But because she's shown smoking and driving a red sportscar (or it looked like one) and wondered, why her daughter couldn't accept to be attractive, we assume, well, whatever.

[Disasterfreak]

I find it hard to believe even a couple of guilt-ridden, brainwashed teenagers would kill a girl just because of THAT. But stranger things have happened.

I only gave this episode a "good". I did like it--just found the plot a bit unlikely. It does sort of support my original idea that religious groups don't necessarily bring out the best in people. Can't really generalize of course. And while I DO support people who want to remain "pure" until marriage (after all, it IS their decision and not an easy one), I don't enjoy the close-mindedness that comes with it. I mean, those kids felt "dirty" just because they had sex. How can any religion allow them to feel like that, when what all religions should do is make everyone feel loved and accepted and teach them tolerance?

Anyway those are my own opinions and maybe it's not politically correct to mention them here.

I liked how they developed Carrie's character though. Made us see a lonely, love-starved, slightly pathetic girl at first... until we realized, deep down, she was the only one who had it RIGHT. She was confused, but her heart was in the right place.

Lots of holes in the actual case IMO. Too many to mention almost. Let's just say cops back in 98 would have had to be fools not to figure it out, what with all the grabbing, snatching, kicking and stepping around that went on in that crime scene. Tsk tsk.

[Disasterfreak]

Double post!!

After reading everyone's comments, lemme just say I wholeheartedly agree with TVFan's opinion on why Lil said that "out with friends" thing. I didn't buy it either. It just screamed I DON'T WANNA TALK ABOUT IT.

I also realized there wasn't an ounce of originality about my previous comment . It's all been said.

One last thing. Boxman (I think HE said it) overestimates teenage girls if he thinks girls with high self esteem walk away from self-destructive situations. First of all, not sure there IS such thing as a teenage girl with high self esteem ALL the time. Adolescence just makes people insecure. Makes sense really--you're finding yourself. High self esteem helps keep you on the right track, but it doesn't mean you won't still make mistakes.

EDIT: Reading over this, it kinda sounds like I've got something against Boxman. But I don't--I really don't! I just happen to agree with Myril on this.

[boxman]

disasterfreak said:

One last thing. Boxman (I think HE said it) overestimates teenage girls if he thinks girls with high self esteem walk away from self-destructive situations. First of all, not sure there IS such thing as a teenage girl with high self esteem ALL the time. Adolescence just makes people insecure. Makes sense really--you're finding yourself. High self esteem helps keep you on the right track, but it doesn't mean you won't still make mistakes.

EDIT: Reading over this, it kinda sounds like I've got something against Boxman. But I don't--I really don't! I just happen to agree with Myril on this.

Actually, if you feel that "adolescence just makes people insecure", you seem to be agreeing more-or-less with me, rather than with Myril. My original point was that Sheila wasn't a great mom because she didn't do much to instill confidence in her daughter Carrie (thus implying that Carrie had insecurities). Myril believes Carrie was confident; and that Carrie was just lonely and naive in some of her decision-making.

[boxman]

Double Post!! ;D

myril said:

And what did we get to know about Carrie's mom? Besides that she was telling her daughter, that she shouldn't be ashamed of having the body of a woman, is smoking and still celebrates the birthday of her daughter - not much I would say. But because she's shown smoking and driving a red sportscar (or it looked like one) and wondered, why her daughter couldn't accept to be attractive, we assume, well, whatever.

That whole scene with Sheila reminded me of an early episodes of "The Simpsons". Patty and Selma give Homer Simpson a "Father Quotient" quiz and he fails miserably. The quiz is made up of simple questions such as: "Who is your son's best friend", "What are your son's hobbies", "Who is your son's hero", and "When should a boy start dating". Homer couldn't answer a single thing! And just like the cartoon, Sheila had no idea who Tina was, why Carrie was going to school on a Saturday, whether or not Carrie was seeing anyone from the baseball team, and so forth. Sheila was practically clueless about Carrie's life! I don't know which is worse: That Sheila had no viable answers for her daughter on how to handle guys, or that she told her daughter that she has a woman's body--then called Carrie by the childish nickname "Care Bear". Or actually, is it worse that Carrie wanted new clothes, but Sheila wouldn't buy any?? It made no sense because earlier we were told that Sheila liked to wear Carrie's clothing. Duh!! Why didn't Sheila simply buy Carrie the more conservative clothing that she wanted, and then buy for herself the flashy clothing she liked to "borrow" from Carrie?? Not only clueless, Sheila was practically useless for guidance and insight. That seems why Carrie made the decision to seek answers about sex from outside her home.

Sheila was driving a third-generation Pontiac Firebird, the same type of car David Hasselhoff drove in the 1980s show "Knight Rider". They stopped making them in 1992, so Sheila could likely have been driving a used car. It was very funny to see (especially with the T-top roof), because people here think it's almost stereotypical that one would imagine a "Kensington bartender" to drive one. They were considered sleek when they first came out, but these days they're just considered a cheesy old car, especially considering it's connection to an 80s television show. ;D

[Disasterfreak]

Touche, Boxman! I need to read your comments earlier on in the day, with more concentration. 2 am impairs my reading comprehension skills. ;D

[coldcasegirl]

OMG! So yes, I'm late... ;D

But I REALLY liked this ep! It was soo sad, and brought me to tears @ the end! I loved the music, and
ah! the DRAMA b/t Lilly and Stillman was priceless! I was like, "no! don't walk away!", LOL, but it was too sweet when he said "Shouldn'ta been you, Lil" ;D I didn't take my eyes off the screen the whole time! I don't think there was ever a second in this ep where I wasn't entertained, all the twists were so great, but like I said, SAD!!
I couldn't believe who turned out to be the killers, but the whole plot made sense (doesn't happen to ME, too often), I don't remember ever being confused during this one! And, as usual, it was better the 2nd, and 3rd, time I watched it! ;D And the end song was too awesome, along with when the mom saw what Carrie had written on her "secret" note. It all was so amazing! ;D ;D

[jt]

In addition to strange fruit and rampage having group killers, Id also like to point out that stand up and hollar also had group killers.

just a thought

[eurache]

RE-AIRING ON CBS AT 10PM ET ON 2/3/2008

[exene]

I saw this last night. When I saw the scene when the purity club was killing Carrie I was really sad. I loved the soundtrack and it was pretty entertaining.
EVERYONE in the purity club was messed up even the minister doing that thing with Tina. I'm a teenager myself but geez...what the hell was that! The only normal person there was Carrie who is known for being a slut.
She got killed because she was just trying to help everyone.
"It's ok to be gay" OH NO SHE DIDN'T!
"You should use protection when having sex" OH NO SHE DIDN'T!
"Your finding love in all the wrong places" OH NO SHE DIDN'T!

LET'S KILL HER!

In another note I think that secretly gay guy Phil is happy he's going to jail because he'll finally going to get the attention he's been depriving himself of.

[unknown]

It's too bad this case wasn't in New York City, because Briscoe and Curtis could have solved this with little trouble. The cops in 1998 dropped the ball on this one.

OTOH, I did feel sorry for the victim and her mother.

[annasayshi]

Finally got to see this episode :-) It was the second in a row to get the "distressing scenes" warning from Sky, but although it was pretty dark and disturbing as well, I enjoyed it better than Thrill Kill. I felt so bad for Carrie's mother at the end, when Scotty gave her the note - it was just really sad and ironic that Carrie was the only person who actually understood what the whole point was, and she ended up getting killed.

I liked the brief Lilly-Stillman scene - I just saw Glued and there were some nice little moments with the two of them in that which I enjoyed, so it was nice to see that they still have that kind of father-daughter relationship. And I was glad they explained why Stillman was in such a bad mood in the last episode - it seemed so uncharacteristic of him, but once he said what was bothering him it made perfect sense that he would feel responsible, even though he wasn't to blame. Hope I get a boss like that :-)

The scene with Scotty and the IAB (or maybe IAD, I can't tell what they're saying!) guy was good - the contrast between the interviewer being so annoyingly calm while Scotty got more and more worked up. And storming out probably wasn't the best idea...

Just to be shallow for a second, Lilly/Kathryn Morris looked really pretty with her hair up like that and the bangs brushed to the side.

[eurache]

CBS REPEAT - JULY 6, 2008 AT 9PM ET

[leni810]

A pretty good episode and too real about the hypocrisy of the people...
The "decent" people obeying the "virtues" were the bad and the hypocrites not the victim.

One mention: The shirt found in the track has nothing to do with the murder. A random fact just makes a case open. This happens from time to time on CC...
And another one ( ;D ): The priest had no reason to hide at the first interogation what he read on the paper, I think. The secret had nothing to do with what happened between hin and the other girl of the team... And also if this was the note that the victim read, would she follow the boy at the night, in the woods?? The logic is that she would avoid any further contact with them...

I fell for Scotty... Poor guy... He just acted for the squad's and Lil's good and the IAD made him pass all this (OK no one is perfect but it's unfair to face all this right now...) and suspect his boss and coleagues. As it is now known, the person behind all this was ADA Thomas...!!!!!!

[stillmanfan]

This was a good episode and I liked that Lilly and John hashed things out. I think maybe he felt bad that he didn't take care of his squad.

Poor Scotty.

[andp]

As much as I like this one, it shouldn't have been a cold case to begin with. As said, the initial lead with the shirt was a dead end. Everything they did should have more than easily been done the first time around. For it to go cold would be due to some pretty incompetent police work.

This wasn't the first time there was more than one killer. Love Conquers Al comes to mind, which does have a similar theme to this one. They thought that by killing the "corrupt influence" they could go back to the way things were.

And was Phil actually gay? It seems like he's only accused of it for some reason, never caught in the act or anything. In the present he says he's married with children and then it isn't brought up again.