Ep. 5.02 That Woman

[TVFan]

LILLY AND THE TEAM RE-OPEN THE 1998 CASE OF A FATALLY BEATEN 15-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO HAD A REPUTATION IN HIGH SCHOOL FOR BEING PROMISCUOUS, ON "COLD CASE," SUNDAY, SEPT. 30

Mackenzie Phillips ("One Day at a Time," "American Graffiti") Guest Stars as the Victim's Mother

Lilly Rush: Kathryn Morris
Scotty Valens: Danny Pino
LT. John Stillman: John Finn
Nick Vera: Jeremy Ratchford
Will Jeffries: Thom Barry
Kat Miller: Tracie Thoms
Sheila Swett (1998, 2007): Mackenzie Phillips
Carrie Swett (1998): Kayla Mae Maloney
Jerry Wood (1998): Matt Funke
Jerry Wood (2007): Keith Britton
Tina Quinn (1998): Hallee Hirsh
Tina Quinn (2007): the one who's name we shall not say Utterback
Phil DiPreta (1998): Raviv Ullman
Phil DiPreta (2007): Chris Emerson
Laurie Wu (1998): Christina Stacey
Laurie Wu (2007): Carmen M. Herlihy
Manny Kim (1998): Jerry Shea
Manny Kim (2007): Randall Park
Nathan O'Donnell (1998, 2007): Shane McRae
Ari Gordon: Mark Rolston
Walter "Wally" Peranski: Ken Magee
Miss Danbury (1998): Corinne Dekker
Girlfriend #1 (1998): Brie Gabrielle

WRITTEN BY: Series consulting producer Liz W. Garcia

DIRECTED BY: Roxann Dawson, one of the series' producers

[Naj]

What a lovely bunch of sick minded christians.

I enjoyed the ep even though there were things up front that were known. And Stillman seems to have much venom for one Mr. Scotty Valens. It's about time he did something about his behavior. Can't wait to see how this turns out. I liked the underscore at the end.

[longislanditalian2]

I liked how it was set up like a S2 episode with less personal stories. Lilly seemed a lot better in this episode, but Stillman seems more angry with Scotty now. He does need some conseling to deal with his anger, it seems to get him into trouble a lot.

[eurache]

I was wondering what kind of school was this that it had such a club like that?

Scotty and Stillman, geez... gonna be some problems. He basically told Stillman he was a snitch.

Stillman expressed a great deal of concern for Lilly.

I thought it was good, but I kind of fell asleep and missed some parts, so I got to look at it again on my VCR.

[boxman]

Very interesting episode. Seeing the previews, I wasn't sure if the story would interest me; however, I had high hopes for this episode as it was written by Liz Garcia, who's turning out as one of my favorite writers for the show. Interesting how she's made a very powerful statement in the storyline... though should we expect any less??

[boxman]

naj said:

I liked the underscore at the end.

Ahh... I liked the underscore throughout!! I'm trying to be more attentive to it, as I had difficulty voting for the "Underscore" category last season... ;D

[soccerulz]

THIS is the freakin' show I fell in love with. I don't know where it's been for the past few seasons but I sure am glad it's back ;D

1. Being a christian, I was preparing myself to get annoyed with this episode. Normally, episodes that center around christianity choose to portray christians in a light that is generally anything but positive. BUT I liked how they did this. Christians aren't perfect, they screw up, mess up, and are just as confused about life and growing up as people who aren't christian. I'm not saying we all go out and kill people - haha but you know what I mean. I got extremely emotional at the end when we saw the note that said "I believe God loves me for who I am" (I think that's what it said - it was something along those lines) - I found it incredibly ironic and perfect that she was the only one out of the group to really *get* it. I loved it.

2. Loved the conversation in the beginning, where Lilly said "What? I have friends" and no one looked like they believed her - hehe. Poor girl.

3. So Stillman is feeling guilty about Lil getting shot huh? Poor guy

4. The hair is still up! ;D

5. Pretty much, I loved it. I'm a sucker for these kinds of storylines. I found it really interesting.

[bethanywood]

Wow, isn't this the first time the killer happened to be KILLERS? I was quite surprised! Boy, I wonder what Scotty did that was so horrible that made Stillman "snitch". When I saw the angry look scotty gave him, I felt very nervous.

[coldfan74]

very good episode in my opinion.
im very pleased it didnt follow some predictable scott-lacey peterson kinda storyline
the chastity club really surprised me when the plot was introduced.
not to be PC or anything but im glad they have more diverse guest appearances to make these episodes more realistic and situational.
the whole story was in equal parts tragic and disturbing not so much of who dunnit and how but really why..albeit twisted.
a little borrowed theme from "the lottery" by shirley jackson didnt hurt either
good job. i think this episode was better than thrill kill.

[boxman]

soccerulz said:

1. Being a christian, I was preparing myself to get annoyed with this episode. Normally, episodes that center around christianity choose to portray christians in a light that is generally anything but positive. BUT I liked how they did this. Christians aren't perfect, they screw up, mess up, and are just as confused about life and growing up as people who aren't christian. I'm not saying we all go out and kill people - haha but you know what I mean. I got extremely emotional at the end when we saw the note that said "I believe God loves me for who I am" (I think that's what it said - it was something along those lines) - I found it incredibly ironic and perfect that she was the only one out of the group to really *get* it. I loved it.

Hey, you know, I'm glad you wrote this, Soccer. I think Hollywood writers generally have absolutely no idea of what the religion -- nor its followers -- are all about. But this episode was very well-rounded in how it dealt with the topic and the religion. I thought in the end it was well-balanced and very sophisticated. Deep.

bethanywood said:

Wow, isn't this the first time the killer happened to be KILLERS? I was quite surprised!

Yes... And teenage ones too! Kinda creepy, no??

coldfan74 said:

not to be PC or anything but im glad they have more diverse guest appearances to make these episodes more realistic and situational.

I kept thinking that Laurie Wu and Manny Kim must be Korean?? Here in Philly (and in South Jersey), there's a *lot* of Korean immigrants. One thing I came to notice is that many of them are Christians. This was a bit surprising to me, as I would expect immigrants from Asia to be Buddhists. It seems that many of them moved to the area during the eighties because the U.S. is "known" by other countries to be a Christianity-heavy society. I guess I shouldn't be surprised?? The name "Philadelphia" -- or "City of Brotherly Love" -- was named that because William Penn wanted this New World colony to be a place where people (i.e. Christians of various denominations from Europe) could worship freely... Especially so as back in the early-1600s they were brutally killing each other off in Europe in the Protestant Revolution as like, say, those Iraqis are killing their own brothers in Islam today.... This all makes me very interested in seeing next week's episode.

I really, REALLY liked seeing Mackenzie Phillips!! I thought she was great!

[The Reverend Bizarre]

I gave this show a good rating. I hate to say that I pin pointed Tina as being the killer the second time I saw her. True that she wasn't the only one who was guilty, but she was the leader of this event.

As a Christian myself I found it neat that Tina and the others were living under "the Law". Tina even demands that they stone Carrie because it's written in Deuteronomy. Meanwhile Carrie it seems was living (or trying to live) under the law of grace. She did her best not to judge people, except for Tina and the minister. However I have a feeling that may have something to do with Tina's own protection. (Read: I do believe that Carrie cared for Tina, and didn't want to see her hurt.)

Also interesting that there's a parallel here with the story about the adultress woman. Just about everyone knows this story. Woman is about to stoned, Jesus comes to them and says "He who is without sin may cast the first stone." None of them can do it, and the woman is pardoned. In the show however, Carrie is not pardoned.

Lilly mentions that Carrie "was killed for their sins." I wouldn't compare Carrie to Jesus, but rather to Azazel. For those who don't know, back in the Old Testament, God's people would at some points sacrifice one goat to God as a sin offering. Then they would lay all their sins on a second goat and have it wander the desert.

Think about it. These Christians were placing their sins on Carrie. Except she never got to go away.

[boxman]

xuchilbara said:

IAlso interesting that there's a parallel here with the story about the adultress woman. Just about everyone knows this story. Woman is about to stoned, Jesus comes to them and says "He who is without sin may cast the first stone." None of them can do it, and the woman is pardoned. In the show however, Carrie is not pardoned.

Excellent point!! Great catch, TRB!

I'm saddened to say that both of my DVRs screwed up the recording tonight!! GRRrrrr.... Liz Garcia episodes usually require watching them many times to catch subtle analogies like what you've pointed out here. My first DVR had a bad disc in it, and the second recorder screwed up by shutting off at about 0:50 minutes. I'm very VERY upset.

[coldfan74]

boxman said:

soccerulz said:

1. Being a christian, I was preparing myself to get annoyed with this episode. Normally, episodes that center around christianity choose to portray christians in a light that is generally anything but positive. BUT I liked how they did this. Christians aren't perfect, they screw up, mess up, and are just as confused about life and growing up as people who aren't christian. I'm not saying we all go out and kill people - haha but you know what I mean. I got extremely emotional at the end when we saw the note that said "I believe God loves me for who I am" (I think that's what it said - it was something along those lines) - I found it incredibly ironic and perfect that she was the only one out of the group to really *get* it. I loved it.

Hey, you know, I'm glad you wrote this, Soccer. I think Hollywood writers generally have absolutely no idea of what the religion -- nor its followers -- are all about. But this episode was very well-rounded in how it dealt with the topic and the religion. I thought in the end it was well-balanced and very sophisticated. Deep.

Hollywood generally has no clue or care about accuracy in regards to religon, ethnicity, or even race. Hardly a surprise but even a person with remote intelligence should be able to have better judgement than to use television as a reference of fact. one would hope anyways

Yes... And teenage ones too! Kinda creepy, no??

Teen Christians are not uncommon..but like any teenagers..their reasoning and actions are still adolescent..faith or not
This episode reminds me the dark version of "Saved" (that movie with Mandy Moore)

coldfan74 said:

not to be PC or anything but im glad they have more diverse guest appearances to make these episodes more realistic and situational.

I kept thinking that Laurie Wu and Manny Kim must be Korean?? Here in Philly (and in South Jersey), there's a *lot* of Korean immigrants. One thing I came to notice is that many of them are Christians. This was a bit surprising to me, as I would expect immigrants from Asia to be Buddhists. It seems that many of them moved to the area during the eighties because the U.S. is "known" by other countries to be a Christianity-heavy society. I guess I shouldn't be surprised?? The name "Philadelphia" -- or "City of Brotherly Love" -- was named that because William Penn wanted this New World colony to be a place where people (i.e. Christians of various denominations from Europe) could worship freely... Especially so as back in the early-1600s they were brutally killing each other off in Europe in the Protestant Revolution as like, say, those Iraqis are killing their own brothers in Islam today.... This all makes me very interested in seeing next week's episode.

I really, REALLY liked seeing Mackenzie Phillips!! I thought she was great!

Nope. Christianity does exist outside of the United States
And I doubt practicing religon was their sole motivation to come to the US.
Given that those kids spoke english are strong hints they were born in the US or spent most of their childhood in it. So I don't understand where the immigration reference even comes from. Unless its the same old implied insinuation that anyone who isnt caucasian or black MUST be a foreigner.

[boxman]

coldfan74 said:

Nope. Christianity does exist outside of the United States
And I doubt practicing religon was their sole motivation to come to the US.

Right, another motivation I understand was economic; that S. Korea's economy wasn't well in the 70's and 80's, so emigration to the US was appealing for that reason as well (as for many other ethnic groups who've come here many times before). But in contrast to Christianity, the Economy wasn't a central idea to the story, so I didn't feel that aspect of Koreans emigrating to Philly was worth mentioning...

Given that those kids spoke english are strong hints they were born in the US or spent most of their childhood in it. So I don't understand where the immigration reference even comes from. Unless its the same old implied insinuation that anyone who isnt caucasian or black MUST be a foreigner.

Oh, no such insinuation that they're "foreigners" all... In fact, exactly the opposite. As I've said before, the Korean influx to this area seemed to mainly have occurred in the 80's. I thought it's worth mentioning because that would mean that Laurie and Manny would've been born in the 80's as US citizens (to Christian parents), and thus have attended high school in 1998 as presented in the episode. My comment was made simply to show that the writer seemingly "did her homework" quite extensively about people living here, and didn't simply throw in Asian characters arbitrarily just to satisfy the "PC-police". Thus, like you, I found that the choice of Asian characters for Laurie and Manny (likely raised in Christian households), added to the realism to this story.

[coldfan74]

for what its worth..i didnt get an intuition that christianity itself was being scrutinized in this episode although i could potentially see why some would feel otherwise
what i saw were a group of young scared confused kids being teenagers with religious values making wrong decisions using bad judgement. this episode was teenage-centric.

few things that really bugged me about this story was...if carrie freaked out knowing one of them was out to kill her..why would she get in a car with one of them?

also if im not misunderstanding the timeline, why was carrie even attending another one of those chastity meetings (the meeting where she reads the note threatening to kill her) AFTER she caught nathan masturbating off of tina's secrets earler?

if nathan knew one of them was threatening to kill her..you would think he wouldve said something for the last 9 years

[boxman]

soccerulz said:

2. Loved the conversation in the beginning, where Lilly said "What? I have friends" and no one looked like they believed her - hehe. Poor girl.

Right... Jack, Jim, Bud, Johnnie, and his brothers Black and Red... It's not really a good sign that she went drinking. In Cold Case, they repeatedly show that individuals who drink alcohol have some sort of problem, stress, or bad nature to hide. This, plus how Lilly splashed water on her face in the previous ep probably seem to be BIG hints that there's more of something to come for Lilly this season.

[Naj]

what i saw were a group of young scared confused kids being teenagers with religious values making wrong decisions using bad judgement. this episode was teenage-centric.

Hope my lead off comment at the beginning of the thread didn't offend. I grew up in a religious environment but I can tell you that religon can give anyone some screwed up ideas of what one can do and somehow like it gives one a license to judge others to the point of administering justice. The friends encircling Carrie and the big rock was indicative of a biblical "stoning" plain and simple.

I must be good. I picked Tina out as the killer in the very first segment. However I never would have guessed it was a group murder.

I missed the Lilly remarks about friends. There were some other zingers in there that the detectives ranted which were funny.

I enjoyed MacKenzie Phillips appearance and I enjoyed Liz's story and Roxanne's direction.

I'm not sure about what is upsetting Stillman so much. That Stillman got shot and couldn't prevent Lilly from going into the room with the killer or the way Scotty handled the shooting. It could be that Scotty's bullet is the one that got Lilly. Maybe that's why Stillman is so angered at Scotty. Scotty is a "dolthead" detective. I've always felt that way about him and that's why I don't really respect him or his judgement nor care to see him handle anything regarding the cases.

[LillyKat]

Another great episode.

- Opening banter between Lilly and Vera: classic (though I am concerned Lil' seems to be out drinking late ... that can't be good).

- Stillman/Lilly: I have always loved this dynamic, so I was happy to see some resolution to the tension that was displayed last week. Although I didn't see it coming, I thought it was appropriate that Stillman felt guilty about the shooting - that he should have somehow been the one to handle it all, and that it definitely should NOT have been Lil' who was shot. I LOVED this, and that she kind of got him to fess up about it. She's gotten him to fess up before, and I think this goes along with what I have always interpreted as his very father-like relationship with her, not to mention her mentor on the job. And the way she sort of hopped, skipped and jumped to tell him she made the psych eval appointment ... I think she really does see him as the closest thing to a father she has ever had, and that she doesn't want to let him down no matter what. Likewise, neither does he. Just my interpretation. Loved this whole scene - small, but effective.

- The fact that there were multiple killers was a new twist that I really enjoyed. Tina was pretty wicked. Even though I sensed she was responsible, it completely caught me off-guard that ALL of the gang were in on it. I also thought Carrie was a sad victim. I empathized with her, how she was trying to change, how she had gotten her reputation in the first place ... it worked well for me.

- Loving this Internal Affairs issue ... and that they are going after Scotty about his previous behavior ... and that Stillman obviously has written him up on a couple of things unbeknownst to Scotty. Lots of good conflict, there. I still don't know how he escaped being found out about pounding that guy in the playground back at the end of Season 3, and how he DOES have an anger management-disobey-direct-order issue. I do love Scotty, but I think some of his poorer choices might be catching up with him at the wrong time (even if his actions to save Lil' were the right ones).

- Roxann Dawson directed some of my favorite Season 3 episodes, so I was happy to see her work once again. I just like the look/feel of her episodes - her angles, her sequences. The montage at the end, where the mug shots of all the group were cut quickly together, between old and new, fragmented in appearance ... loved that.

- Liz Garcia is one of my favorite writers, so I generally am predisposed to liking her work. Although I wouldn't say this was my favorite Liz ep, it still is another top drawer effort.

Entertaining ep.

[koufax]

It was interesting to me that during this political season the writers used the quote and made quite a few references to the Clinton scandal. I wonder if the reference was to show ALL the hypocrisy in our society?

[soccerulz]

koufax said:

It was interesting to me that during this political season the writers used the quote and made quite a few references to the Clinton scandal. I wonder if the reference was to show ALL the hypocrisy in our society?

That's a good point Koufax.

I also thought it was really interesting how they chose to have Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" speech playing in that opening sequence.