Past Lilly vs. Current Lilly

[Naj]

[quote by JMishotterthanDB?]Maybe the writers had too much fun writing in a "relationship" for Lilly that they forgot she's suppose to be this strong spunky woman with quick quips[/quote]

I'm really curious as to why they did this. Why? One reason could be ratings. What were their expectations of this show for season one? Did they think it should be drawing the same number of viewers as CSI? Season one rating were in the 13-14-15 million range. Did they believe the show was a flop and that's why they hurried to move the central detective theme? Were they pressured due to the viewer range? It seems shows are judged harshly before the show even has a chance to find it's audience. The show was definitely finding it's audience in season one and two.


[quote by JMishotter thanDB]I suppose the networks know what we want better than ourselves[/quote]

Really? I guess that's why I watch the Discovery Channel, PBS and History Channel the most. The only prime time show I regularly watch is Cold Case. That's it. And now I've become a Hallmark Channel fan. Of course, I'm old and shriveled up and don't count anymore since I'm not in the suits target age range anymore as of last year.




[quote by LillyKat]That said, if Meredith Stiehm did really intend to shift the show to an emphasis on something other than Lilly (and thus Season 3 really was her vision) … well, then the audience the show was built on (like you, my mom, my co-worker) got seriously duped. [/quote]


Evidently. However I will say being here at this tiny little segment on the internet - there was a mass exodus after season 2 of fans from this board and the core fans here were really tiffed about the season three change so much that I created a hidden forum for them to vent while trying to push myself to greet the "Josie chippy" fans and keep everything pleasant. Much of the talk about Lilly came to a sudden halt because of the show's turn to less Lilly which was increasingly noticable season four on.



[quote by LillyKat]And yet, I can believe Meredith perhaps did intend to change it all deliberately given it would support more of her own comments about never really knowing when something is going to be successful and/or something is a hit (hence why NO ONE thought to negotiate rights for the music for DVD distribution from the outset). When I was catching up on the series, I came across interviews whereby she would refer to her time writing for other dramas (NYPD Blue, etc.), honing her skill, discovering her strength at writing procedurals. Yet, she admitted she never knew for sure what was going to work. She herself was a terrible judge at figuring out a “hit.” That perhaps now seems blatantly obvious if she did indeed feel the need to shift the focus off of where it was with the first two seasons. I do remember InsideR specifically saying that shows often times don't know a good thing when they have it, and thus, they try and tinker with it too much only to have it end up being worse off than where it started (the whole “fix” something that isn't broken thing).[/quote]

Or was she told by someone higher up to make these changes in the show format? Weren't there rumours of this too? Whose idea was "Josie chippy" Sutton? And why?



[quote by LillyKat]And when Meredith sort of "left" in the fourth season, it fell to Veena to try and clean up the mess ... but perhaps the damage was already done … and the road back is proving to be a long one.[/quote]


Well here's my take of what Veena was left with as a viewer. How could she possibly fix it? There's a momentum a show has when one is viewing it each week. That momentum was happening in season two and by the end of the season many of the fans were going - Wow! Then they make an abrupt turn taking from that forumula leaving us scratching our heads. And the show has never recovered. It hasn't recovered in it's ratings either - it's going down, down, down this season. The problem is that "it's done", Veena can't go back and make it all about Lilly. If she did - it would look really strange - don't you think?


[quote by LillyKat]Agreed. The ghastly appearance of Lilly as the series has progressed continues to astonish me (hence the "Lilly can't get any paler jokes"). Again, watching the older eps ... she looked so healthy, so vibrant, so natural. What the heck happened? It went way beyond the sickly-recover-from-George thing.

And I should state this is not a slam on Kathryn. She is the victim, here.[/quote]


Absolutely this is not a slam against the lovely and talented Kathryn Morris. It's about her character. But if Kathryn is leaving in two years (I was counting this year as one of those two years) maybe this is their way of phasing her out. Maybe the storyline is for Lilly to become ill in her problems and who knows how they will write her out.

[longislanditalian2]

Km did say that S7 was all she was contracted to , not counting this season. S7 probably means that will be the last season of the entire series

[Gina]

longislanditalian2 said:

Km did say that S7 was all she was contracted to , not counting this season. S7 probably means that will be the last season of the entire series

*gasp* NOOOOO!

[TVFan]

That Tracie Thoms rumor has been circulating since she joined the series, but thus far, it has failed to be substantiated. If I had to guess, I'd say it's just wishful thinking on behalf of her core fans. Nothing against Tracie (I LOVE her on CC and I think her singing voice is quite possibly the most amazing voice I've heard in a long time -- her solo in "Seasons of Love" gives me chills), but the show is about Lilly. I can't imagine that would change (even with all of the negative changes regarding the character). I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

[LillyKat]

naj said:

Evidently. However I will say being here at this tiny little segment on the internet - there was a mass exodus after season 2 of fans from this board and the core fans here were really tiffed about the season three change so much that I created a hidden forum for them to vent while trying to push myself to greet the "Josie chippy" fans and keep everything pleasant. Much of the talk about Lilly came to a sudden halt because of the show's turn to less Lilly which was increasingly noticable season four on.

I think you have perhaps more insight than I in charting the path of how the show has changed - especially the all crucial swing vote from the second to third season. Since I came to the show very late into Season 3 (starting with "Beautiful Little Fool"), I completely missed the uproar regarding the "Josie chippy" Sutton character and/or the lack of fallout following Lilly v. George.

However, having gone back and watched it all in its entirety in repeats, it is so obvious - even in repeats - what a goof that creative decision was, and subsequently, why it angered some of the original loyal viewers. Though Sutton doesn't bother me (and actually, oddly enough, I came to kind of like her), the decision to abruptly introduce a new detective whilst simultaneously downplaying the aftermath of Lilly v. George (which carved into the true core of Lilly Rush) just didn't work. It must have been a huge let down for fans at the time it played out and/or terribly confusing. It's weird to me now - even in hindsight. I still do not understand why they went in that direction. As I said earlier, can Bruckheimer and Co. honestly look at this show and say it's the same product? "Ah yes, of course it is because it still in the Top 20, LillyKat. That's all we care about."

Whatever.

Or was she told by someone higher up to make these changes in the show format? Weren't there rumours of this too? Whose idea was "Josie chippy" Sutton? And why?

Along the same lines as not understanding why they chose to open Season 3 the way they did, I really don't know if it was the network, Meredith or both. I actually am still inclined to believe Meredith's comments about not knowing a hit when it's a hit, and thus, perhaps thinking she needed to change things up even though nothing was broken. We know most of the original producers/writers left after the first and second seasons, and only a handful remained for the third, thus further washing away anyone who remembers what the show was before it fell into this rut (or formula, depending on what side you're on).

As to this whole introduction of a new character thing ... all I have to go on is InsideR's rather ominous comments about needing some "youth" because CC skews older. The problem is, MOST CBS SHOWS SKEW OLDER. Hello, this is CBS. The Croonie Broadcasting Station.

So even though they ditched "Josie chippy" Sutton, they still brought in Kat Miller.

Now, I agree with TVFan in that I do like Tracie Thoms. I think she's a quality actress. The voice is to die for. But Kat Miller did not need to become a regular and/or need to be around full time. She could've been recurring and that would've been just as good. Like Kite was. Or Louie. Or Frannie.

Her introduction has, in my opinion, continued to erode the focus off of Lilly as the central driving force of the show. I do not like this whole ensemble it has become. I got into the show (even late in the third season) because Detective Lilly Rush captivated my interest. I want to watch her week in, week out. This obsession networks have with "youth" or getting younger viewers has wrecked a good number of shows, and I fear CC's efforts to do the same - if that really is/was the case - will lead to its own demise given people liked what they were originally watching.

Well here's my take of what Veena was left with as a viewer. How could she possibly fix it? There's a momentum a show has when one is viewing it each week. That momentum was happening in season two and by the end of the season many of the fans were going - Wow! Then they make an abrupt turn taking from that forumula leaving us scratching our heads. And the show has never recovered. It hasn't recovered in it's ratings either - it's going down, down, down this season. The problem is that "it's done", Veena can't go back and make it all about Lilly. If she did - it would look really strange - don't you think?

I think Veena had an unenviable task, and I don't think she can win. I also think this show may have peaked too soon. That is, they were so good in the first and second seasons that everything after has paled in comparison. This does sometimes happen. It depends on the show. Almost three seasons removed, people still cite "Mindhunter" and "The Woods" as their favorites, with very few late season eps ever getting onto anyone's Top 5/10 eps of all time. What does that say? What they've given us since then doesn't measure up? Coincidence? LOL!

I do agree with 00bomber's comments in that many of us have perhaps substantially lowered our expectations for what we get out of the show nowadays. It's not the same, and now it may be stuck in this we-can't-go-back phase. And, until the ratings dive or it falls out of the Top 20, maybe they'll see what's happened and do something drastic to change it around. It's a shame, really.

But you never know ... call me an optimist, but maybe this abrupt end to the fifth season because of the writer's strike will clear the creative cobwebs, and what gets brought back into the next season turns another corner in the right direction. Again, I think Season 5 had some promise. But they did just drop Lilly's therapy, they haven't hardly had her deal with anything other than showing her drunk and not sleeping. Um, 'kay ... we get that ... can we move on to something else? Like, talking? Dealing? Both? I don't want to see one more flashback of the hallway lights. LOL! A second season Lilly might have just flipped out by now and been done with it. LOL! Or been irked with herself for even being affected. Can we not see that?

Who knows ... As the CC World Turns ... LOL!

tvfan said:

That Tracie Thoms rumor has been circulating since she joined the series, but thus far, it has failed to be substantiated. If I had to guess, I'd say it's just wishful thinking on behalf of her core fans. Nothing against Tracie (I LOVE her on CC and I think her singing voice is quite possibly the most amazing voice I've heard in a long time -- her solo in "Seasons of Love" gives me chills), but the show is about Lilly. I can't imagine that would change (even with all of the negative changes regarding the character). I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

I'd have to second the notion the Tracie Thoms takeover thing has always been a rumor and/or wishful thinking on the part of her fan base. There has never been any truth to it - no matter how much the "focus" of CC may have changed.

[TVFan]

I'm taking this thread out of hibernation now that season 5 is complete (and we've all had time to assess the impact of the writers strike on the final run of episodes). I'm not so sure that much changed. "The Road" gave us shades of former Lilly (and I suspect, was supposed to serve as the conclusion of the "Lilly got shot and is having nightmares as she's trying very unsuccessfully to deal with it" story line as I imagine season 6 will simply move past the story), and it ended on a high note as Lil seemed to regain some of that hope she had lost over the course of the last 3 seasons. Of course, there's the Eddie Saccardo story, but it's just in the beginning stages and who knows how that will turn out. So basically, there's potential for a happier, more season 1-like Lilly, but I'm not sure we'll see it come to fruition next season.

I got thinking about all of this again because I caught "Joseph" and "Rampage" on my local CW this afternoon. As I was watching Lil make her poor decision and almost flush her career down the toilet, I couldn't help but think that she had finally put her heart above her career. She put it all on the line, including her feelings, without hiding behind her job and this was why I actually like this outing so much. She took a risk for a guy that she liked and a chance at happiness and that's all I have been asking for with her. And then we see just how happy she is in "Rampage" when she's rolling all over the bed with this guy and I started to wonder why I look back on this relationship with negativity. Then, it dawned on me. The story was good. It was working. But then, it ended terribly. Joseph cut and run at the first sign of trouble (which seemed out of character). I guess the writers wanted to create some sort of conflict by reintroducing the Ray character, but quite frankly, it Just. Didn't. Work. I take no issues with the reintroduction of the character and the way things went down between him and Lil, but I think they should have written Joseph differently in that final scene between him and Lil. And come to think of it, Lil should have been written differently as well. In fact, just re-write the entire scene! That one scene killed this otherwise well played relationship for me. Bummer.

Of course, finding a good man for Lil (to play Fritz to Lil's Brenda as LillyKat and I keep crossing our fingers for ) would only serve as a band aid on this situation anyway. I want to see her commanding interviews, talking suspects off their ledges, having fun at work and home, and finally (actually!) working through her issues instead of just kinda dealing with them, getting distracted and eventually sweeping them back under the rug. But I'm beginning to feel none of this is going to happen, so I'll have to go back to watching the character out of the context of her cooler, far superior former self.

[longislanditalian2]

I think the way Lil's going she needs to have friends more than love right now. Love doesn't seem to do anything for her except make her so depressed. Perhaps have a night out with Scotty as friends you know go to a movie or just hang out, Lil needs a social life to get her old self back . Love isn't going to bring that back but having friends could bring her smile and how she was.

[Gina]

Maybe we need to just toss out Veena and get Meredith back!!! Because Veena is doing nothing but making Lilly depressed. I agree with LII2, that is a good theory.

Wait-doesn't Veena Sud have an account on Look Again? Which one is she?

[TVFan]

I really don't think it's Veena Sud. In my opinion, she has written some of Lilly's best scenes ("Mind Hunter," "Fly Away," "The Woods") and she always gives us plenty of quality Lilly scenes in her episodes. If anything, it's the fact that her more involved showrunner duties are preventing her from writing more episodes. I honestly believe that if she wrote every episode (an impossibility, obviously), we wouldn't be constructively criticizing the character.

[LillyKat]

Amen to your recent post, TVFan.

I have never understood the up n’out drop of Joseph. I liked him. Still do. I wanted him to stick around at least the length of the Christina development arc. What Lilly did for him, what he got out of her (similar to Kite), the fact he was a decent bloke and not another overly done bad boy rig-a-ma-role, the fact he was very similar to Lilly in the passion for his own job and/or his own troubled upbringing … such promise to explore, and yet they just ruined the whole thing. The ridiculous re-introduction of Ray (who should’ve just ridden off into the sunset and never come back after the third season) was a clichéd, oh-let’s-make-it-a-love-triangle thing that failed miserably and/or screwed up what was shaping up to be something promising with Joseph and, consequently, in getting at some of Lilly’s core personal issues – abandonment, failed relationships (whether with Patrick, her sister, her mother, etc.). To have Joseph dump her was out of character, and once again, the show just pulled the plug on her personal development at the exact moment they should’ve kept going with it. I don’t get it, and I’m afraid I’ve given up trying to figure it out.

As for what we’ve learned about Lilly at the end of season five (particularly after her whole end of season four shooting) … in the words of the fabulous The Reverend Bizarre: we’ve learned Lilly STILL has nightmares, and thus, nothing much has changed in her world.

Wow, how exciting.

Not.

How they get away with this is beyond me.

I may be one of the few who refuses to allow the writers strike to be used as an excuse for the fifth season. Yes, it interrupted things, but IMHO, nothing much was moving along BEFORE the strike any more so than it was afterwards. And while there were some gems of episodes, on the overall Lilly character development front, the show once again failed to do anything significant after they threw TWO MAJOR catalysts onto their main character – being shot; having her mother die.

And I do mean nothing.

Two lines of dialogue in two 15 second therapy sessions is absurd; no funeral and/or no DISCUSSION of her mother’s death is beyond ridiculous. It’s almost like none of it ever happened.

As for Veena Sud’s reign as Executive Producer … IMHO, she should shoulder some of the blame of where the show is currently given she is responsible for its overall direction. Shonda Rhimes took total responsibility with regards to the Isaiah Washington blow up on Grey's Anatomy and/or how she tore down everything at the end of the '06-'07 season so as to re-build it in this '07-'08 season. Marc Cherry is always at the forefront on speaking to the direction of Desperate Housewives. Lord knows Chris Carter always spoke up about The X-Files. I'm not comparing CC to either GA or DH shows (I don't even watch them); but in covering enough TV news for PTR, and in having a general working knowledge of how shows are put together, I am saying that, as a showrunner, you step up and defend your decisions and/or talk about what the heck you're doing with the show. Veena rarely does this (and neither do any of the other co-executive producers), so we're left to "guess" at what the heck is going on when such a shift has occurred.

Now, I love Veena. She has (and always will have) written some of the best episodes of the series to date. But why the show seems to have floundered under her in terms of Lilly's character development makes no sense to me. This is a woman who has been with the show from Day 1. Of all the people on the executive/creative staff at the moment (outside of possibly Liz Garcia if memory serves me correctly), Veena, of all people, should remember what the show used to be about. The fact there are so few left from those first two seasons on the writing/producing side is problematic in and of itself, but why the show is so far away from what it used to be when it’s supposedly being run by someone FROM those old days doesn’t make sense to me.

Who decided to turn it from the "lone crusading Philadelphia homicide detective who finds her calling solving cold jobs" / "people shouldn’t be forgotten" / "the evidence never dies" to … justice? Why has Warner Brothers completely reinvented the show’s tag line and promo angle? Why is there no mention of any particular homicide detective taking charge of anything anymore? Why is the lead seemingly reduced to a supporting role and/or the suppporting actors think their job is to get performances out of guest stars? Where was the whole “we’re going to be more collaborative this season” that Veena specifically mention in last summer’s KM Emmy magazine article - was that, like, something politically correct to say in support of your lead actress? You cannot tell me Season 5 was "collaborative" for anybody - strike or no strike.

So, are we to think this was always the plan? Were those who enjoyed those first two seasons duped into thinking the show was always going centered around Lilly, only to see it eventually turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction? If so, then just own up and say it already. Take the guess work out of it for those left scratching their heads about the direction (or lack thereof) as it pertains to Lilly's characterization in this show.

I really have no clue anymore. And the more the older eps air, the more I am just absolutely disenchanted with CC’s current state. The shift is baffling. The continual downward slide of their ratings should be an indicator that, hey, you might want to take a look at what you’re doing to the show, folks. Shows are supposed to hit their stride in their fourth, fifth, sixth seasons, not seemingly be some shell of their former selves. As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, IMHO, the network, Littman, Bruckheimer, Moonves, etc. cannot possibly look at this show today and say it’s the same. Yet, no one seems to be sounding any alarm that they now prefer the stripped down formula over continuing to infuse the show with what made it so compelling to watch in the beginning. Namely, Detective Lilly Rush. Heck, when Tracie Thoms is saying her job is simply to get the best possible performance out of a guest star … wow, how fun for EVERYONE on the cast, eh? And who tunes in for guest stars anyways (the lesser known, week in/week out ones)?

Whatever.

As such, IMHO, they’ve lost the show with this approach. They’ve turned Lilly into an also-ran, a bland, boring, nameless, just-another-detective-chick on one of those CBS crime shows. Yes, they’ll claim there are those who will watch for non-Lilly and/or merely the cases and/or actually like where the show is today. But, I don’t see an enormous change in ratings (namely going upwards) SINCE the shift began in the third season … so how they justify this today is I guess a) advertisers are still buying air time; b) there isn’t anything to replace it with.

Yet.

IMHO, and as the saying goes, the writing is on the wall. No pun intended. Whether Team CC chooses to read it is up to them. Sad that a show that started with such a bang, created a truly unique, strong and beautifully flawed female lead character unlike anything on television at the time, and built such an audience so quickly could, arguably, end up going out with a whimper – if/whenever that day arrives.

[Naj]

The part with Joseph was working really well but then they turned him into another Kite. I was expecting something more. But if they had kept him around how would that grow Lilly? Could they have done anything to keep it interesting? And maybe that's why they dropped him. I am going to go with what I said awhile back. Lilly's storyline will conclude with nothing being resolved around her personal life. She'll be an enigma. I don't believe this is under Veena's control as I think the series turned into something completely different than I anticipated. Who knows, maybe they will kill off Lilly's character next season if the series is to continue while KM's contract expires.

[longislanditalian2]

Naj- everyone is contracted to S7 so killing Lilly off wouldn't be a good idea.

[Gina]

Kill off Lilly! Kill off Lilly!

Haha, I'm just kidding.

[longislanditalian2]

At Least's Lilly's over the whole Zombie thing, at the end of S5 she seems to be a lot lighter than at the beginning.

[Gina]

Oh, thank GOD that's over.

[longislanditalian2]

Plus last season Lilly didn't look like such a ghost, her makeup was normal for once.

[Gina]

Yeah, maybe she's actually reverting back to human form.

[00bomber]

May 20, 2008 8:04:19 GMT -5 longislanditalian2 said:

Naj- everyone is contracted to S7 so killing Lilly off wouldn't be a good idea.

I don't mean to sound like a biatch but with the whole character problem with Lilly and her position in the show, it might not even make much of a difference to the shows current state.

I was watching sherry darlin' from season 1 the other day, which basically reitterated everything that has been said in this thread. The character no longer has that edge like she used to. I don't know how to explain it but for me its like there's nothing there anymore. The character doesn't seem interesting, if anything she seems boring, especially in the season 5 finale. Cold case chucks everything into the pot and leaves it there.
Even the majority of the cases lack that "killer blow" that they used to have, not to mention that it's been a long time since I even "cared" (in a TV sense) about who the victim was.

If CC began is say season 3, I don't think it would've lasted too long. You seriously question what was going on in the writers/producers who ever else's minds between season 2 and season 3? (did they hit the drink ).
I think even KM has been dudded, her character has unfortuneately become a boring nobody. I might seem a bit harsh but I'm beyond frustration. Basically I'm still watching because the show is so much better than pleanty of other shows out there its not funny and it still does have it's strong points, but I always feel like I'm gonna jump ship... It just never happens.

Also Lillykat summed the situation up perfectly on the previous page.

[cellogal]

I agree. To me, Lilly is the least interesting character on the show. That's not to say that she's not interesting; she still is, but she definitely used to be more so. The show's still good, though...I watch it for the cases and for everyone else. The other characters are so quietly, understatedly fabulous.

[Gina]

00bomber, I agree. she has become somewhat boring. I mean, that whole "I'm gonna totally cover up my past and be really b*tchy to everyone" thing isn't a good plot device anymore. Now it's just annoying. Really, I mean she wouldn't even go to the damn therapist.......I'm completely yawning over Lilly Rush. Right now, she's kind of cliche. I mean, how many crime dramas involve a troubled detective? I can't even count. There are some episodes, where when I don't want to jump off the boat, because I still love this show, that makeme wonder why I ever got hooked on 5th season, because if I start watching a show when it's like this, I usually never continue. Season 5 is the only season I've seen completely, but I've seen speckles of other seasons, and I'm thinnking to myself: "WTF happened to that Lilly Rush? That's the Lilly I liked. Not the depressed, boring one we see before us now. And with the zombie makeup, that's getting better, finally. But I read in TV Guide that she will get into a romantic relationship with Eddie Saccardo, and he really gets under her skin about her personal life. So I wonder if that will bring back our old Lilly.

Who knows, maybe she'll actually take a vacation in s6.