Lilly and child issues. (deep post)

[The Reverend Bizarre]

During my time at this forum I've seen certain speculations and theories that Lilly had either an abortion or a miscarriage. What if however the problem were even deeper?

What if Lilly is unable to have children? I'm basing this theory on The Woods, and various scenes from season 3 and four. In "Mindhunters" George revealed that he had looked at Lilly's 49 report. Doing some research I have figured that a 49 report is simply a report given by a victim. In "The Woods" we have the infamous scene between George and Lilly. During one part of the scene this occurs.

George: Did he touch you? In your secret place?

Notice that this is the moment in which Lilly starts crying. As far as I'm concerned she's never cried on the show until now. So why would this suddenly open up the gates, unless George really hit a nerve with her?

Later on...

George: And then he took your money and went along his merry way.

Lilly: You know damn well he didn't.

In this context we know that George knows what happened to Lilly. His remark about the man going on his merry way after taking Lilly's money is him being sardonic. As Lilly says, George knows what exactly happened to Lilly.

Suffice to say, as sad as it is, I think Lilly was assaulted. I am starting to think that this assault messed her up to the point where she cannot have children.

I'd go into detail about all the "child/baby and/or abortion" symbols, but most of them are nearly the same. In "Baby Blues" we could see the depression she had concerning the baby, and in my mind this depression isn't the depression of someone in guilt. It's the depression of someone who can never have what someone else threw away.

In "Knuckle Up" we see the victim in the position of a fetus. Ironic then how Lilly is disturbed by this image to the point of almost getting sick. As a detective surely she would be used to seeing dead bodies by now. Alas this scene appears to be symbolic.

I'd also like to point out that this could be the reason why Lilly has so many sexual relationships, but not a steady one. I do think she wants to be with someone, but there's a subconscious fear. What man really wants to be with a woman who cannot have his children?

This could be the reason too that Lilly pushes people away.

Thoughts?

[eurache]

Wow I never thought of it that way. What you presented to us, could seem plausible. Most definitely she has been pushing ppl away, being wanted but not close. This could be b/c she can't have children. I can't wait to see what Boxman and others thing. Thanks REv for your insight on this and it kind of fits too.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Glad to post something of possible insight. I'll post more tomorrow when I get more replies.

[riche]

A very well thought out and thorough analysis TRB. A good read.

I've made a quick transcript of the scene from The Woods.

Lilly: I was 10. On my way to the store. It was dark out. Late.
George: And that's when the bad man came for you?
Lilly: I ran, but he caught me.
George: Did he touch you? In your secret place?
Lilly: (Lilly turns away, shaking her head a little) He wanted my money. That's why he followed me. I gave him what I had.
George: And then he went his merry way?
Lilly: You know he didn't. (shots of young Lilly screaming and putting her hands up to defend herself)
George: Tell me what he did.
Lilly: He hit me! I don't remember much after that.
George: Fractured jaw. 5 broken teeth. Pretty little face not so pretty when he got through with you.
Lilly: I fought but he wouldn't stop. He just kept hitting me and hitting me. And laughing. I didn't want to die. So I fought.

What if Lilly is unable to have children?

Lilly was clearly very badly beaten. Maybe that has caused injuries that prevent her having children. I'm not sure we can say she was raped, I know you didn't imply she was TRB.

George: Did he touch you? In your secret place?

Notice that this is the moment in which Lilly starts crying.

I think that this was more a case of Lilly really beginning to remember the assault. Prior to that she had refused to talk about it, surpressing the thought. Then she realises she can talk about it with George and it won't go any further. The chances are one, or both them, are not leaving that room alive.

I'd go into detail about all the "child/baby and/or abortion" symbols, but most of them are nearly the same.

I think, as discussed elsewhere, that Lilly has major issues with children dying because she herself nearly did. And this extends to include issues with parents that harm their children or allow their children to be harmed.

I'd also like to point out that this could be the reason why Lilly has so many sexual relationships, but not a steady one.

Maybe, but can we say Lilly has had a lot of sexual relationships? How many do we know about? 4 or 5? Not many for a person of her age.

She clearly has issues with intimacy but this may stem from the fact that people she has loved and let get close to her have let her down. Her mother didn't protect her. Ray took to swinging by only when he needed help. Her sister stole her boyfriend.

[Disasterfreak]

I think you make some pretty valid points, Rev. Of course we have no way of knowing, and the writers could make things go anyway they want. This COULD be what they're hinting at, but I still think the same sort of behavior (getting depressed over a dead baby, looking wistful when it comes to kids, etc) could just stem from the fact she actually wants something she thinks she'll probably never have. Not because she CAN'T, but because, given the structure of her personality, it's unlikely. When you've had intimacy/relationship issues for the better part of 30-odd years, you start thinking maybe you're just not MADE for a relationship or kids, no matter how much you might want them. And I think it's pretty clear (and valid) Lilly would like a family... at least, that she doesn't wanna grow old and alone. Sure it makes her sad when she realizes that's how life's turning out.

As for why she has intimacy issues... truth is, there could be SO many reasons. And not necessarily because of the assault. Even if she'd never been assaulted she could still have relationship difficulties merely from watching her mom go through so many dysfunctional ones.

Besides... objectively speaking, the way medicine works these days, I find it very unlikely even violent rape could end in complete infertility. There's no real biological fundament for it.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

@riche and Disaster Freak - First I'm glad you're enjoying the theory.

@ RiCHe- Thanks for the transcript!

Lilly was clearly very badly beaten. Maybe that has caused injuries that prevent her having children. I'm not sure we can say she was raped, I know you didn't imply she was TRB.

Actually, in a way I was, or implying that she could have been molested. Have you ever noticed how Lilly acts when the victim was also a rape victim? We all know that Lilly can "act", (telling someone about her abusive husband. Telling some guy she's a vegetarian.), but it seems that when Lilly is face to face with a rapist you can tell she's angry. Of course we could contribute that to the fact that Lilly's a woman, and of course she'd feel that way no matter what.

I think that this was more a case of Lilly really beginning to remember the assault. Prior to that she had refused to talk about it, surpressing the thought. Then she realises she can talk about it with George and it won't go any further. The chances are one, or both them, are not leaving that room alive.

Even so, being forced to remember something like that could cause one to emotionally explode. Ironic how it's the words "did he touch you, in your secret place?" that causes this. I wonder how Lilly would have reacted if George had said, "Did he take all your money?"

I think, as discussed elsewhere, that Lilly has major issues with children dying because she herself nearly did. And this extends to include issues with parents that harm their children or allow their children to be harmed.

That is definitely true, but there's also the way she acted in "Baby Blues". It seems alot different to me in my opinion.

Maybe, but can we say Lilly has had a lot of sexual relationships? How many do we know about? 4 or 5? Not many for a person of her age.

I think I may have worded that wrong. I should have put that Lilly has had more sexual relationships than she has steady ones. Even with Joseph, how does she meet him? When did she crush on him? That's right, she found a photo of him and instantly started crushing even when she knew he was "dead". True he wasn't actually dead, and true they did last a little while, but alas Joseph dumps her.

We also don't know too much about her life before she became a cop/detective. We know in highschool that she was one of the students that a lot of people were afraid of (RiCHe do you have the transcript of that part? It's from the episode "Stand Up and Holler.") We know that she almost got married to Patrick/Ray (whether it's Ray, or a different man named Patrick still appears to be up for debate.) We know that she went to college, but after that...blank (unless certain things were mentioned in season 1 and 2.)

She clearly has issues with intimacy but this may stem from the fact that people she has loved and let get close to her have let her down. Her mother didn't protect her. Ray took to swinging by only when he needed help. Her sister stole her boyfriend.

That is true, but has anyone noticed that Lilly seems to have more trouble having relationships with women? As far as we know she doesn't have any girlfriends, and I've noticed her social life revolves around going to the pub with her co-workers, or hooking up with Ray.


Disasterfreak - You do make some valid points. Of course we don't know what the writers are intending with this storyline here, but alas it is fun to theorize about these things.

Also her possible inability to have children could be psychological.

Besides... objectively speaking, the way medicine works these days, I find it very unlikely even violent rape could end in complete infertility. There's no real biological fundament for it

Even if the violent rape happened at age 10? We also have to remember that Lilly's attack occured sometime during the early 80s (give or take.) and that her family was poor. I'm not sure how the healthcare system worked back during the 80s though.

[longislanditalian2]

Very good points here


I think Lilly can't have kids, but something got me when Lilly said this in Maternal instints( I was too proud to ask for help for too long) could it possibly be something else or I'm just looking too much into this.

Maybe not being able to have kids is why Lilly is so alone all the time. She isn't ready to accept the fact; but on one hand doesn't want her secret to be exposed. To her it would make her seem weak,that nobody could love her.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Don't worry about looking into things too much LII2. As a theorist myself I tend to look into things abit deeply myself. Although I have to say I'm alot worse with the SH series. (case in point, one time I wrote a theory based on a set of Greek letters found on a door.)

The quote "I was too proud to ask for help for too long." could indicate a lot of things actually.

Maybe not being able to have kids is why Lilly is so alone all the time. She isn't ready to accept the fact; but on one hand doesn't want her secret to be exposed. To her it would make her seem weak,that nobody could love her.

Plus there's that whole primitive thing too. In most cases a guy wants to marry someone who can have his children. Now there are a few guys that don't want children, and there's a few guys who would rather adopt. Perhaps if Lilly can't have children, but still wants one she could marry a guy that wants to adopt.

Of course Scotty did mention that all the good cops tend to be lone wolves. Of course he failed to mention that wolves live in packs, and that two wolves tend to stay together for life.

Once two dispersing wolves meet and begin traveling together, they immediately begin the process of seeking out territory, preferably in time for the next mating season. The bond that forms between these wolves often lasts until one of them dies — with few exceptions.

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

[longislanditalian2]

Hmm, maybe the two wolves meet that Lilly and Scotty might be together ( or again I'm just looking too deeply into this )

I think Lilly wants to be with someone but wants her own biological kids but can't. For her the pain is deeply felt, she wants so badly to experience being pregnant but knows it wouldn't happen but on the other hand; can't really decided what she wants.

If indeed that Lilly can't have children, this explains the look on her face when Alice in Sandhogs says this' Can't get pregnant' , but the sentence finshes off with something that reminded her of her mother. Because of Ellen's drinking,she was attacked.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

that very well could be true.

[Disasterfreak]

Even if the violent rape happened at age 10? We also have to remember that Lilly's attack occured sometime during the early 80s (give or take.) and that her family was poor. I'm not sure how the healthcare system worked back during the 80s though.

True. Although... well, I don't wanna offend anybody by going on too graphically about this stuff. Let's just say that EVEN in the 80s it would be unlikely for her to be damaged to the point of being physically unable to bear children. But of course it could be more than enough to make her EMOTIONALLY unable to bear children. So Rev is right in a way.

I still think Lilly would be perfectly able to have kids and that she really would want to... it's the relationship part that's messing her up. In her mind, I'm guessing she doesn't want for her child the sort of broken home she came from, so she'd rather hold off until she can provide a good, stable daddy... and that, unfortunately, doesn't look like it's gonna happen anytime soon.

[jambled]

I thought this too, that lilly was unable to have children when I first saw the woods and mindhunters!
That somehow she was infertile... I was going to write a fic about it, can't remember if I ever did (re; her inability to commit is because she never wants to get in a relationship deep enough to tell the guy she's barren).

If it is for emotional reasons then I think it would have more to do with her upbringing and fear of inadvertently (sp?) becoming her mother than with being raped. I base this on her trying to be the opposite of her mother (not committing whereas her mother is willing to get married every other day) and also because it seems to be safe to assume the rape would have psychologically affected her sexual performance; and judging by joseph she seems fine with that!

However, she's kept the cats alive. Isn't there the familiar routine; keep a plant alive for a year, then an animal, then you're ready for children.

Then again, maybe she just hasn't met the right guy. Ray's a wanderer, Kite left, Patrick was cheater and Joseph just didn't work out. And in her line of work she doesn't meet the most wonderful of men. Nor does she have time to speed date or whatever (although her and Lindsay speed dating at the start of an ep would be priceless). That biological clock is ticking...

[The Reverend Bizarre]

@disaster Freak - That could be true. A good portion of infertility is caused by mental issues.

@jambled - In one of my "in progress fics" (Purple Haze) I'm actually exploring this issue, I don't want to give too much away, but a pivotal clue is given in one of the chapters.

I think Lilly keeps cats because they're symbolic of her. People who tend to own cats are generally loners who are busy/may be busy. The fact that Lilly owns three cats who have some sort of flaw to them indicates that while she does have a desire to stick up for the under"cat", she prefers something more self sufficient.

hmmm

[riche]

xuchilbara said:

Even so, being forced to remember something like that could cause one to emotionally explode. Ironic how it's the words "did he touch you, in your secret place?" that causes this. I wonder how Lilly would have reacted if George had said, "Did he take all your money?"

Actually Lilly was already quite teary when he said that, having refused to talk and then starting. It was later when she was saying about how he "just kept hitting me" that she broken down further. The reaction to the "special place" comment was more the turning away and shaking her head. Not a flat out "no" but somewhat dismissive.

I think I may have worded that wrong. I should have put that Lilly has had more sexual relationships than she has steady ones. Even with Joseph, how does she meet him? When did she crush on him? That's right, she found a photo of him and instantly started crushing even when she knew he was "dead". True he wasn't actually dead, and true they did last a little while, but alas Joseph dumps her.

That is a good point.

We also don't know too much about her life before she became a cop/detective. We know in highschool that she was one of the students that a lot of people were afraid of (RiCHe do you have the transcript of that part? It's from the episode "Stand Up and Holler.")

Kat: Who were you in highschool Lil'?
Lilly: Definitely not the cheerleader.
Kat: Bad girl no-one would mess with?
Lilly: You could say that.

[riche]

jambled said:

If it is for emotional reasons then I think it would have more to do with her upbringing and fear of inadvertently (sp?) becoming her mother than with being raped. I base this on her trying to be the opposite of her mother (not committing whereas her mother is willing to get married every other day) and also because it seems to be safe to assume the rape would have psychologically affected her sexual performance; and judging by joseph she seems fine with that!

A very good collection of points. Clearly sex isn't a problem for her. Not wanting to be her mother (bad parent etc.) is probably significant.

However, she's kept the cats alive. Isn't there the familiar routine; keep a plant alive for a year, then an animal, then you're ready for children.

Then again, maybe she just hasn't met the right guy.

I wonder if George's "not so pretty" comment is something. I'm sure we've all felt unattractive/unworthy to others and if someone comes along that does want to be with you then there must be something wrong with them. Summed up in the old Groucho Marks line "I’d never join a club that would have me as a member."

[riche]

Sorry for the triple post it was easier than trying to tie several posts together.

xuchilbara said:

I think Lilly keeps cats because they're symbolic of her. People who tend to own cats are generally loners who are busy/may be busy. The fact that Lilly owns three cats who have some sort of flaw to them indicates that while she does have a desire to stick up for the under"cat", she prefers something more self sufficient.

"Undercat" ;D Wasn't that a cartoon series back in the '80s? Under-under-under, UNDERCATS! ;D

Lilly's looking after the "gruesome-threesome" is definitely significant. It says a lot about her character. They are creatures no doubt rejected by others based on their looks. Perhaps during Lilly's recovery from her assault she felt rejected by people such as school friends. My guess is her mother probably took it badly and Lilly took it as a rejection based on her disfigurement. Whereas it was more likely a realiasation that she was responsible for her daughter's injuries.

[Naj]

I never thought about Lilly just not being physically able to have a child. That's interesting.

I'd go into detail about all the "child/baby and/or abortion" symbols, but most of them are nearly the same.


I think, as discussed elsewhere, that Lilly has major issues with children dying because she herself nearly did. And this extends to include issues with parents that harm their children or allow their children to be harmed.

I never made this connection either. The attic dialog with George always bothered me. It's like Lilly reverted to being a little child in those dialogs. Then she would come back out and become adult and attack George. It was actually kinda spooky, creepy. I always thought we'd find out more about this part of Lilly but we haven't really. But I did believe she was violently raped at age 10.

[Kayli]

I think this is looking too far into it..? I think maybe she could've been raped on that night when she was younger but I'm sure TPTB didn't expect us to think she'd had an abortion/miscarriage, But i really don't know..

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Looking too deeply into things is what Reverends do best!

[Gina]

You make an excellent point. I started watching Cold Case at the very beginning of Season 5, so I didn't see this episode. However, I would like to bring up a point that I saw in a Cold Case marathon. It is the one where the mentally challenged kid is run over by a train. Scotty is talking to Christina.

S: Why don't you and Lilly get along, anyway?
C: Well, it was 9 years ago, when Lilly was engaged to a guy we all loved.
S: Lil was engaged?
C: Yeah, until...
S: Until what?
C:(some stuff I don't remember...),and one night, he had a few too many beers, and....

This may imply that Lily was raped by her fiancee,....

Lily is like a puzzle that someone lost a piece to. You just can't complete it without that piece. And until someone finds that piece, all we can do is speculate.