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Post by ninja1088 on Mar 1, 2010 14:48:17 GMT -5
Sadly, CC isn't the only series that's become guilty of accusing suspects tweny or thirty seconds into the interview. The CSI shows, WAT, The Mentalist(sure there are others) seem to have an inablity to talk to suspects without accusing them at least once. Then they seem shocked when the suspects get hostile.
And despite the sub-plots this season, it still managed (imo) to not be as bad as what happened to WAT and a couple of the CSIS in the later years.
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Post by tommyk on Mar 1, 2010 15:21:17 GMT -5
Hey, ninja, I don't disagree that the other procedurals too have resorted to accusing every suspect, instead of relying on -- oh, I don't know -- detective work. I've just always held up COLD CASE to higher standards! And by and large, I agree that COLD CASE has maintained a higher level of quality than most of its aging CBS counterparts, some of which are unwatchable. But until "Two Weddings," there hasn't been a episode in a while -- maybe all season -- that I would "force" a friend to watch, to say, "See why I got hooked on this show." (After a while, on most series, I begin to realize I'm watching more out of loyalty than genuine interest.)
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Post by beldasnoop on Mar 1, 2010 16:10:36 GMT -5
You took the words right out of my mouth (or off my keyboard), tommyk! I agree with everything you wrote above. I'm also one who watches CC primarily for the cases, and I like getting to know the detectives *through* their reactions to the cases. I don't mind the occasional subplot, but not when the subplots take precedence over the cases, and that seems to have been happening more often than not this season.
I've enjoyed a lot of the episodes this season, but still there has been the sense that something was missing. The cases have been interesting, but there usually hasn't been the same sense of character development and true investment in the stories and atmosphere of the cases. It was like the cases only existed as a framing device for the regulars' personal stories, when in the show's heyday it was the other way around. I really enjoyed last night's return to form, and I hope it continues.
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Post by eduardo on Mar 1, 2010 16:41:52 GMT -5
Exactly!
Personally I DO NOT LIKE to see what's going on with the detectives' lives. I do not want "character developement". I miss the old Lilly, the one who only cared for the cases and nothing else.
That's the main reason why Cold Case has fallen so much... Usually my favorite episodes are where personal stories are OFF... In very few cases they can do a good storyline with a good episode (Metamorphosis).
Please, If there's a season 8 or at least for what's remaining of this one: NO MORE SOAP OPERA.
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Post by Electrophile on Mar 1, 2010 18:25:32 GMT -5
What's the point in doing a drama if there's no character development? Might as well cancel the show because it wouldn't be worth watching.
They may be actors playing fictional characters, but those characters are being played by real people. Those real people are going to infuse the characters with real life. Real life develops, it changes, it grows. It's how we see the characters maturing and going through ups and downs and learning things about themselves. That doesn't take away from the characters' abilities to solve cold cases and be who and what they are. It enriches them and gives them depth that makes them MORE likable and MORE appealing.
Who wants to watch a bunch of wooden, lifeless people read lines for an hour, with flashbacks and music interspersed between those scenes? I don't, and I'm glad the people who write/produce Cold Case don't either.
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Post by tommyk on Mar 1, 2010 18:50:38 GMT -5
You said it beautifully, beldasnoop, and succinctly! (I tend to be more than a little verbose.) There used to be such viewer investment in the cases; the suspects were multi-dimensional. Unburdened by excessive subplots, there was time for that. I was interested to see openthebox (above) question if the groom would really be seduced by the sister, when he was pining away for his old girlfriend; but people fall prey to temptation for all kinds of reasons other than just lust -- insecurity, lack of direction, self-loathing. People's actions aren't linear; their emotions aren't simple. I feel more and more, as the subplots claim precious air time, that the "case" characters are being defined by one trait. It was refreshing last night to see that the groom wasn't merely lustful; that the mother wasn't only brittle; that the father was, in fact, humane. And Lilly and Scotty and the rest, for my money, freed from the burden of oppressive subplots, seemed more engaging than they have in ages.
Electrophile, I personally would never argue for "no character development"; I like character development. But I don't agree that the current (to my mind, excessive) airtime devoted to personal stories "enriches [the characters] and gives them depth that makes them MORE likable and MORE appealing." Clearly when COLD CASE lucked into a (surprising) seventh season last spring, Johnson and Plageman decided to go for broke with some season-long personal stories. But I think in undercutting the cases, they lost their link to what made COLD CASE so special. It was so nice last night to keep cutting to commercial on the case, not on a personal moment. (I've grown to hate the way the subplots have started to crowd out the suspects in the closing montages, too. ) I had never quite realized that every time you cut to commercial on a subplot, the implied message is that those moments are "more important" than anything going on in the case -- but that message doesn't elevate the detectives, it diminishes them. What makes them special is that NOTHING is more important than the case.
By the way, I think I'd argue that Scotty, whose character has indeed developed over the years, was in fact "most likeable and most appealing" in Season 1.
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Post by eduardo on Mar 1, 2010 22:07:00 GMT -5
You said it beautifully, beldasnoop, and succinctly! (I tend to be more than a little verbose.) There used to be such viewer investment in the cases; the suspects were multi-dimensional. Unburdened by excessive subplots, there was time for that. I was interested to see openthebox (above) question if the groom would really be seduced by the sister, when he was pining away for his old girlfriend; but people fall prey to temptation for all kinds of reasons other than just lust -- insecurity, lack of direction, self-loathing. People's actions aren't linear; their emotions aren't simple. I feel more and more, as the subplots claim precious air time, that the "case" characters are being defined by one trait. It was refreshing last night to see that the groom wasn't merely lustful; that the mother wasn't only brittle; that the father was, in fact, humane. And Lilly and Scotty and the rest, for my money, freed from the burden of oppressive subplots, seemed more engaging than they have in ages. Electrophile, I personally would never argue for "no character development"; I like character development. But I don't agree that the current (to my mind, excessive) airtime devoted to personal stories "enriches [the characters] and gives them depth that makes them MORE likable and MORE appealing." Clearly when COLD CASE lucked into a (surprising) seventh season last spring, Johnson and Plageman decided to go for broke with some season-long personal stories. But I think in undercutting the cases, they lost their link to what made COLD CASE so special. It was so nice last night to keep cutting to commercial on the case, not on a personal moment. (I've grown to hate the way the subplots have started to crowd out the suspects in the closing montages, too. ) I had never quite realized that every time you cut to commercial on a subplot, the implied message is that those moments are "more important" than anything going on in the case -- but that message doesn't elevate the detectives, it diminishes them. What makes them special is that NOTHING is more important than the case. By the way, I think I'd argue that Scotty, whose character has indeed developed over the years, was in fact "most likeable and most appealing" in Season 1. I agree. I made a mistake when saying no character development. I should have said NO SOAP OPERA. |
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toddsmitts
Veteran Detective
WIKI WIKI BOY [/color]
Posts: 611
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Post by toddsmitts on Mar 1, 2010 22:14:52 GMT -5
Great eppy. I'll put it up with the cases in "Soul" (great music and ) First thing, the suicide really threw me (in a good way). Once it became clear that Phil was gonna be the last person interviewed, I was expecting some struggle that ended with Dan accidentally being knocked over the ledge. I doubt Phil was arrested, though just in case, I put his status as "unknown" on the wiki. I don't know how I feel about Louie actually being a suspect or not. Nobody actually believes he could've done it, do they? Not really a big deal though. I don't really object to any of the personal storylines going on, nor do I think that Lilly has to basically be a nun with nothing in her life but the cases. Maybe she started out that way, but it would be pretty dull if nothing changed in all the years we saw her, wouldn't it? I like that she's reconnecting with her father and bonding with his family (hope we get to meet her half-sister before the season's done). I even like that seeing a guy walk after trying to kill her brought out a dark side of her (even if I thought the end result was a bit weak). Some of the cases themselves this season have been a little blah (still some good ones, but not as many GREAT ones), but I don't blame the subplots for that. I don't see any reason why we can't have have a balance of interesting cases and some interesting personal stuff as well ("NYPD Blue" did it successfully for twelve years). One note: Anyone else recognize the exterior of that church from "Sanctuary"? Given the mother's social concerns, I'm betting it's not meant to be the same one. As for the wedding, if this is indeed our final season, this may have been our last appearance of Louie, but good to know he's going out happy. Notice how they both like Orange Crush?  Glad to get a reminder that the geek can still get the girl! ;D (Where was he during the bouquet throwing though?) |
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Post by eduardo on Mar 1, 2010 22:30:07 GMT -5
"Metamorphosis" did it right for me: EXCELLENT case and GOOD personal issues.
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Post by openthebox on Mar 1, 2010 23:35:44 GMT -5
I agree. I made a mistake when saying no character development. I should have said NO SOAP OPERA. I think you should prepare for the soapy stuff, E. I agree that CC has gotten away from it's original roots, but it's being done to generate interest, raise the stakes, and up the numbers, imo. Think about how much TV has changed since the first season of CC. It's quite possible if they hadn't sparked in this direction, we wouldn't have gotten a 7th season. And there may be some decent payoffs down the road. Moe's death wasn't one. But we've got Scotty's situation and a few others headed our way. |
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605 
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Mar 2, 2010 1:48:47 GMT -5
I wish that people would stop throwing around the 'Soap Opera' word carelessly. If Cold Case were going into that realm, then the episodes would look something like this;
Lilly: *teary eyed*
Scotty: *with his shirt off, because everyone knows that soap men always go shirtless* Yo, Lil' what's wrong?
Lilly: *staring at Scotty's pecs.* What makes you think that something is wrong?
Scotty: You've been cryin' Lil.
Lilly: *tears up more*
Scotty: *caresses her face* Shhh, it'll be alright.
Lilly: No, no it won't Scotty.
Scotty: What do you mean, Lil?
*cue shot of Lilly's face*
*meanwhile*
Doherty: Hurh Hurh, I am rich and powerful, and the evil patriarch of this show.
*Elsewhere at a hospital*
*We see Moe Kitchener in a hospital bed strapped to various machines. Even though he's been shot in the head, he's not dead, because nobody really dies in a soap opera*
Hank Butler: *enters room dressed as a doctor, because that's so easy* You b*****d, you stuffed my daughter in a box. Now, I'll make sure that you're stuffed in a box.
*back to Lilly and Scotty*
Lilly: Scotty, I'm pregnant.
Scotty: What?
Lilly: I-I'm sorry, but I had a few drinks the other night, and Moe offered me a ride home. Next thing I know, we're in bed together, and oh God Scotty, I'm so sorry.
Scotty: You, you dirty little hussy! Get out! I'm going to call the precinct and have you fired!
Lilly: *SOBS*
*of course the above is a 'fantasy'*
Scotty: Lil, you okay?
Lilly: Hold me, Scotty!
Electrophile/Eduardo/tommyk/truBlu/TRB/Naj/BoxMan/EVERY VIEWER: What. The. Hell?
*coughs*
I rest my case.
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Post by tillace on Mar 2, 2010 2:19:37 GMT -5
*back to Lilly and Scotty* Lilly: Scotty, I'm pregnant. Scotty: What? Lilly: I-I'm sorry, but I had a few drinks the other night, and Moe offered me a ride home. Next thing I know, we're in bed together, and oh God Scotty, I'm so sorry. Scotty: You, you dirty little hussy! Get out! I'm going to call the precinct and have you fired! Lilly: *SOBS* *of course the above is a 'fantasy'* Scotty: Lil, you okay? Lilly: Hold me, Scotty!  Very good...except you forgot the stage direction "Lilly turns around so her back is to Scotty while continuing heartfelt discussion". ;D |
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Mar 2, 2010 2:46:06 GMT -5
I also forgot the part where KM is replaced by another blonde, and despite their great difference in appearance, nobody on the show seems to notice.  |
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Post by ninja1088 on Mar 2, 2010 3:30:45 GMT -5
In CC's defense, yes they've injected drama into it. But trust me when I saw compared to other shows I used to watch, it is still MILES away from them. Without A Trace became nothing more than the Jack & Sam show in the last season and Law & Order SVU... ugh is all I'll say on that. Ditto on the false accusations. They'd face a lawsuit long before the CC cops would.
Finally, Tsmitts, I think it's safe to say Phil wasn't arrested. He didn't murder Dan,he just didn't tell them he killed himself. And given the guilt he felt over making that phone call,he in a way blames himself for it.
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leni810
Senior Detective
Posts: 569
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Post by leni810 on Mar 2, 2010 4:51:18 GMT -5
I know I've been missing from here but I didn't miss an eppy!! I had no time time to be here but I was in general pretty disappointed by the turnout of the most eppisodes. But this last? That was something from the good old years!! And even if these old ones left us with a saddness at the end, this one, I don't know, but it left a smile on my face. What happened to the groom was pretty sad but everything was based on true and deep love. All this with the wedding was pretty good. The detectives trying to figure out ways to get near the persons involved was interesting and funny. (ADA Bell was brilliant! hehe!! Also this with Scotty and the bride's mother was funny "-Lawyer?Banker? -It's so obvious eh?" I bet she was thinking "That's who my daughter should be married!". What a disappointement when she saw that appearances finally deceive..! ;D) Everybody were gorgeous in formal wear. (I loved Lil's shoes!!) Pretty sweet the thing that the flowers landed on Lil's feet! As for the ghost, we saw how everybody knew about the incident with the groom and surely there would be many who thought that the bride killed him. The closure of the case set her free. And as for the soap, me too, I don't think that there is any soap in CC. Maybe this with the "family thing" was a bit exaggerated, the sister, the mother, the father, the brother and the great aunt in Alaska but it wasn't so soapish...It came in small doses at least! Unlike WaT, I agree, ninja1088. (As for SVU I think that it is its own genre and there is no actually soap because this whole thing with Elliot, family and Olivia is matched for the very start of the show or/and for too many years that it became a solid substance and obviously it didn't tire the viewers.) |
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Post by Naj on Mar 2, 2010 9:31:03 GMT -5
The Reverend Bizarre. Don't forget the major pan in shots where Lilly holds her pose during the drama.  |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom 
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on Mar 2, 2010 13:43:31 GMT -5
I don't understand the criticism about the show's "soap operas" or side stories either. Cold Case always had them, and they're nearly always presented in ways that compliments the main story very creatively and cleverly that's rarely seen on other shows.
For example, take a look at the season two episode, "Wishing". The main story was about Colin, the mentally-challenged teen that got killed by a moving train. The details of his death remained a mystery because key people that knew him hid the truth from others. (Colin was accused of sexually attacking Leah, a girl he admired. But the truth was she felt sorry for him and let him kiss her. Leah didn't want to admit this out of fear of enraging her boyfriend and being ridiculed by others. Leah hiding this truth set a series of events in motion that ultimately help lead to Colin's death.) In the episode's side story, Scotty is hooking up with Lilly's sister; but like Leah, Scotty's not "telling the whole truth" to Lilly about it. Later in the episode, Lilly is interrogating Leah, and Scotty is observing the two from the opposite side of the two-way mirror. It's an incredible scene, because eventually Lilly not only accuses Leah of covering up the truth, but she also accuses Scotty of lying about his relationship with Christina at the same time! Had there been no "soap opera" about Scotty hooking up with Lilly's sister, this interrogation scene would not have been memorable in any way. But because one could see that Lilly was figuring out what was going on between Scotty and Christina, her sharp-edged questions to Leah was also double-edged and directed to Scotty and had even more impact.
I don't watch a lot of television anymore, but I still have to ask how many other shows intertwine side stories with the main storyline so well in such ways? Not many that I know of. Besides, without the side stories or "soap operas", we wouldn't have seen stuff like Lilly in that white coat and green dress, the whole gang having beer together, "shirtless Scotty", and so forth....
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Post by Electrophile on Mar 2, 2010 14:20:18 GMT -5
I completely agree with both TRB and Boxman.
There's a distinct difference between a "soap opera" and "drama". I think we're all in agreement here that if CC became a soap opera, we'd all stop watching. However allowing the characters to have lives, feelings and experiences outside of being homicide detectives for the city of Philadelphia is important to making the show interesting and worth watching. Otherwise it's just flashbacks and great use of music. No one would watch that either. Do the side-plots sometimes get bogged down? Yes. Does that mean the whole concept of side-plots should be abandoned? Absolutely not.
People complaining about the characters having side stories and arcs are missing the bigger picture, I think.
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Post by beldasnoop on Mar 2, 2010 15:56:44 GMT -5
Oh, I'm not complaining that there are a few side stories. What I take issue with is when the side stories are allowed to take over the episode, and more of the dramatic tension and emotional investment is in the side stories *at the expense* of the cases. As boxman illustrated above in an example from Season 2, this show used to do the subplots much better. This season, for the most part, the subplots haven't seemed to have much relation to the cases, and most of the time they took up so much time in the episode that there wasn't enough time to truly develop the "case" characters enough to truly care about them, as it has been in the past. I wouldn't call the subplots "soapy", exactly. They just seem kind of forced and disconnected with what's going on in the main case. It's like they've become the main event rather than the case, and I think that's backwards.
While I've mostly enjoyed this season, as I wrote above, it has seemed like something has been missing. This latest episode showed me what that "something" was--a case with fully realized characters that drove the whole action of the episode. The odd thing is that in an episode like this that makes a full emotional investment in the case and case characters, the regulars are more fully realized and developed as well. I cared a lot more about Lilly, Scotty and the rest in the this episode than I have all season, because they were revealing their personalities *through* the way they solved the case rather than in seemingly unconnected personal subplots. When the subplots are truly integrated into the episodes so that they enhance the action and emotion of the case, that's better. I just haven't been seeing very much of that this season.
Lately, I had been enjoying the reruns on TNT a lot more than the first run episodes. I don't think the new season has been bad, and there is certainly much worse on TV right now, but it just hasn't been like it used to be. I used to get excited watching CC, and the episodes were truly emotionally moving and satisfying. "Two Weddings" brought that feeling back for me, and I really hope it keeps up.
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Post by coldfan74 on Mar 2, 2010 16:46:56 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one finding these sub plots distracting.
Character development is fine but it should never overshadow the cases. I would love it if the cases somehow affected the characters to development more. The "Good Death", "A Dollar A Dream" etc were few that affected Lily's personal issues with her mother. "Slipping" affected Valens.
If it's hard to believe that the subplots are a bit overbearing, this message forum has evidence that shows that it often does. The ratio of discussion have more or less been about their "personal soap opera". The last couple of years or so, I've seen more content about Lily's love life or lack of here and than having been informed on television.
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Glad to get a reminder that the geek can still get the girl! ;D (Where was he during the bouquet throwing though?)
