Ep. 4.23 The Good Death

[eurache]

LillyKat.. please I love to read your reviews, TVfan's, and Boxman's.. You guys bring so different perspectives on each episodes that i sometimes don't catch it or get a better understanding. I am not at all offended with your opinions nor Boxman's nor anyone else's. It great to read about ppl's different views or feelings on a matter. So, please do not feel offended nor feel we are offended. I hope you will continue to give us your views on these episodes.

[LillyKat]

I keep breaking my own rule of not continuing to post in this thread (LOL!) …

@LII – thank you.

@Eurache – such a kind post; thank you. I honestly think I write a bunch of nonsense most of the time - . LOL!

@boxman - Suffice it to say I appreciate your explanation of how and why you relate to Jay. I personally do not feel this is an East Coast vs. West Coast issue or some sort of lack of exposure to these “kinds” of people. I have Jays in my company; all companies do. However, in my experience – especially with those of us who reside low on the food chain and of which are usually tasked with making good on the deliverables for the Jays of the world – Jays tend not to be well-liked or people you really are itching to work for. Now, there are going to be people (like yourself) who do not mind Jays and/or actually prefer that type of leader. But, there are also plenty of managers, directors, vice presidents or team leaders who are not hard to be around, foul-mouthed, egotistical, inconsiderate or disrespectful towards anyone. They are going to be demanding, and they are going to be vocal (as most leaders are), but there is a fine line between making people work for you and having people want to work for you. The truly good leaders – not the ones who simply know how to get things done – know the difference.

But, no matter how much someone dislikes a Jay of the world, very few people – if any – are going to actually be cruel and sadistic enough to wish them death by a cancer diagnosis (which is the crux of my issue with your original post; I do not wish death to anyone under any circumstances).

There are, however, going to be people (like myself) who believe that a plight that befalls a Jay of the world is, arguably, part of the Universal what-goes-around-comes-around rule; that is, they are being dealt a hardship that they arguably believed they were immune to and or of the “won’t happen to me” mentality. Whether it be their ego, single-mindedness, self-absorption or whatever other character trait they may have that keeps them operating in this sort of “I’m invincible” vacuum … well, the plight – whatever that may be – gives them a reality check they probably never thought they would have to face. How they handle it, what they do with it, whether they learn from it depends entirely on the individual ... do I think Jay handled it in the end? Perhaps … he tried to make amends, set things right when he was pretty much on his deathbed. But overall, this episode was not in the “bad things happen to good people” category for me. Rather, it was in the sort of “bad things happen to those who think bad things won’t happen to them” category. I tend not to always be interested in those episodes.

[00bomber]

That was a great episode and one of the best ones they've done of late. I liked how they linked the halucinations in with everything and even the Lilly and her mum scenes linked in with the case. I'm just unsure about the whole euthenasia thing, was it sposed to be supporting it in a way?

Anyways this was definately a good one.

[Naj]

I agree with Eurache's sentiments. I'm terrible at expressing what I see on the show but so many others observe and say what I can't or point out something I missed. But I can understand if you don't want to talk anymore on this thread - you can take it to pm.

eurache said:

LillyKat.. please I love to read your reviews, TVfan's, and Boxman's.. You guys bring so different perspectives on each episodes that i sometimes don't catch it or get a better understanding. I am not at all offended with your opinions nor Boxman's nor anyone else's. It great to read about ppl's different views or feelings on a matter. So, please do not feel offended nor feel we are offended. I hope you will continue to give us your views on these episodes.

[Naj]

Hi 00bomber,

I liked the hallucinations too. To me they were indicative of dying and going to a place of peace. I'm so glad the remembrance of Louise was a pleasant one and not something he may have thought was sinister. That was such an unexpected twist in itself.

00bomber said:

That was a great episode and one of the best ones they've done of late. I liked how they linked the halucinations in with everything and even the Lilly and her mum scenes linked in with the case. I'm just unsure about the whole euthenasia thing, was it sposed to be supporting it in a way?

Anyways this was definately a good one.

[boxman]

xuchilbara said:

...Both of the victims were doctors or worked in a hospital....

Reverend, I think Jay was a financier for something such as a hedge fund, investment banker, or venture capitalist. He was judged against grads from Wharton, which is a business school. Although the opening scene filmed in white, it may not have necessarily been the boardroom of a medical facility--it just went along with the "passing" theme.

lillykat said:

...There are, however, going to be people (like myself) who believe that a plight that befalls a Jay of the world is, arguably, part of the Universal what-goes-around-comes-around rule; that is, they are being dealt a hardship that they arguably believed they were immune to and or of the “won’t happen to me” mentality. Whether it be their ego, single-mindedness, self-absorption or whatever other character trait they may have that keeps them operating in this sort of “I’m invincible” vacuum … well, the plight – whatever that may be – gives them a reality check they probably never thought they would have to face. How they handle it, what they do with it, whether they learn from it depends entirely on the individual ...

Ahh see?? I'm glad we continued this discussion. It's now becoming apparent to me that we're thinking of two different types of people here.

I've mentioned several negative things about this salesman I work with, but I really should have also mentioned the positives too. In the end, in spite of his flaws, he's still a team member. He acknowledges good work, he apologizes to co-workers (when he catches himself being rude ), he buys the whole office lunch when things are going good, and at Christmastime, I'm almost embarrassed to take his Christmas card because I know I'll find a bill of a rather large denomination inside it. That's just his way of acknowledging us because he's not always skilled with his office etiquette. His abruptness keeps me from figuring him out completely, but I've come to conclude that he's not driven by "ego, single-mindedness, [or] self-absorption" like the individuals you are describing. Instead, I really think the major factor that drives this guy is a fear of failure. He didn't get to go to college when he graduated from high school. He drifted around then eventually entered this trade since his dad worked for a similar company. He got his start on the factory floor where he worked for a few years before making his way into sales.

So taking your view that "what-goes-around-comes-around", I think this salesman has already lived through much of his personal hell. He's had a little invisible monkey on his back for many years, whispering in his ear a constant reminder of what life was like in his early days. He has gotten to where he is today by constantly fighting a fear of being poor and directionless. All those negative things about this salesman I mentioned earlier is very likely a result of his inner battles to fight a mediocre past, and his strong desire to flee his humble roots. Understanding this, do I still get upset at the guy?? Yes, I do. But I also see him as someone who actually did take the lemons that Life handed to him and made lemonade out of it. He still has some way to go with treating people respectfully all the time, but I know from the way he acknowledges good work, gets himself to apologize, and the way he likes to share his wealth with us, that his heart is in the right place, even if he has a hard time expressing it.

It's getting late here... More later...

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Hmm, I thought the ironic part about Jay's disease is that he became one of the highest ups dealing with the hospital. I mean I guess he wasn't a doctor, but didn't he still have something to do with the hospital?

[TVFan]

I'm catching up on this thread, so I just wanted to add my 2 cents on Jay. I found him to be a very unsympathetic victim. Someone who I didn't think I would be emotionally invested in because he seemed like a shallow individual who forgot to stop and love his family on his ride to the top. However, this show has the amazing ability to change my mind, and it most certainly did with this one. In the end, I was close to tears over Jay's death (I'm not a crier with this show) and it moved me more than most this season (a huge feat since I consider this season pretty close to perfect in every element including the emotional one). Maybe it was the hallucinations, the way Jay realized his mistake and tried to make up for it or watching him slowly deteriorate or even the obvious Lilly connect -- I don't know, but something or a lot of somethings made this one very powerful. I just sat back amazed because I wasn't expecting this from a case with such an unsympathetic vic.

[ruda]

not bad. it wasn't boring episode so it was good
I'm proud of Lil. her decision about her mom was really impressed. her behaviour was extremely good and I think her mom deserve for some love.

and the end, when Lil said: "she's dying" ;D muah scene ;D Scotty and Stillman look at each other in shock

[myril]

@reverend. Interesting idea, but I never associated Jay with the hospital in that way. Just thought he was taking over some company. All places in the memories/flashbacks with Jay had that dazzling white look (the home of the family as well), maybe that made it look like it was connected. Well it was, but Jay, the theme of death was the connection. Only exception: the beach.

Hm, the latter, that the beach was more or less the only colorful place, let me thinks, that maybe, the white was not only displaying, that Jay was dying, but that in a certain way he had already died, he was kinda emotionally dead at the beginning of the episode. He had lost something important in life long before - and now started to remember it at the end. "I did something terrible" - that sentence stuck in my mind (Jay says it to his wife while talking about their son's birth and think, said it earlier (?) to Amelia.) Betraying is own dreams of life might have been it, though for a while I wondered, what he was talking about.

The seagull btw somewhat reminded me of the novel "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" by Richard Bach. No idea if that association was intended, but it was there for me. The story of the seagull Jonathan, loving to fly and taking pride in becoming a great flyer even though it made him an outcast. But then he learns that there is more to life than being the best in doing something, more like ofering love and kindness ...

Anyway. Still not sure how to rate this episode, but I sure enjoyed watching it. Jay was a jerk at the beginning, but something told me from the very first moment, that he was not the usual arrogant manager and money guy. He was aggressive and unfair to the people close to him, but you could tell, that he hadn't been always like that in his life. He was the kind of guy, who has fought so hard for his dreams, that he lost a lot of them during his fights without conciously noticing it. You can find that happening a lot to people starting with high ideals. And the more they fight, the more they often push away the people they love. A little alike Lilly perhaps?

I had no clue for a while, what happened. Nicely written, some sidetracks with possible motives, greed, jealousy, anger, though there was always the subject of euthanasia (hm, I don't like that term, it has been missused in history). I like it, if a story isn't simple black and white, when at the end I'm left with a bunch of uncomfortable thoughts and questions. Witnessing Jay's decay and getting an idea about the suffering, you felt a certain sympathy, thinking at the end, it was right to do it, he asked for it, didn't he. But on the other hand was the case of the nurse - is it right to make that decision for someone? Who can tell if they would have wanted it? Can anyone else make that descision? They didn't go that far in this episode, but remembering public discussion of last year (think it was last year) I had a lot of thoughts after watching this episode.

And then the ongoing story line with Lilly and her mother. I'm still impressed about the emotional range they show. Kodus to the team, writers, producers, directors and the 2 actresses. They have only a few minutes, but they use it to tell so much. And the cases add to it - that's what I missed for a while.

[boxman]

myril said:

The seagull btw somewhat reminded me of the novel "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" by Richard Bach. No idea if that association was intended, but it was there for me. The story of the seagull Jonathan, loving to fly and taking pride in becoming a great flyer even though it made him an outcast. But then he learns that there is more to life than being the best in doing something, more like ofering love and kindness ...

Oooo.... Excellent observation, Myril! I think it's a very plausible connection/allusion to a second piece of classic American Literature in this episode.

I also still am going to continue with my earlier comments, and this runs along the lines to what I was thinking about Jay.

[jambled]

I quite liked jay. For a guy driven by a need to succeed, stuck in a loveless marriage and dealing with flashbacks and a death sentence he was actually quite decent. He's the kind of man who succeeds in business but not in life. If he likes you he'll go to the wall for you but if you betray him he'll tear you down.
This ep actually reminded me a little of medium in the flashbacks... Not sure why.
And wasn't it weird that two actresses out of final destination 2 (the wife and amelia) were both in this ep?
Loving despite water under the bridge was a theme in this ep too I felt... Tom and his dad Jay, Lil and her mother. And Lil did better; less regrets and easier to sleep at night.
I thought it was a great ep! I seem to like episodes better when the victim isn't likeable. And the detectives finds out who dunnit anyway.

[samanda]

For those of you interested, here are some pictures of the girl who was going to play young Lilly. She's quite cute.

www.imdb.com/name/nm2624977/

[The Reverend Bizarre]

Ahh, looks like Lilly age 5-7.

[Naj]

This is just such an incredibly sad episode and a classic one at that. I didn't tape this first time around but kept it as one of the best eps for the season. Totally forgot about Kathryn's performance and storyline with her mother and how it relates to this case. KM also had a great interrogation at the end with the wife just as good as the one in Baby Blues.

That Jay character reminded me a bit of Jim Carrey's character in Liar Liar and how he wanted to be such a good father. He had some of Carrey's nuances.

[The Reverend Bizarre]

I'll make this short. Anyone notice that all of flashback scenario's were predominately white?

Anyone notice that Jay's wife was wearing black in the flashbacks?


Oh Cold Case, I love your subtleness.

[boxman]

boxman said:

I also still am going to continue with my earlier comments, and this runs along the lines to what I was thinking about Jay.

Eww... I never finished this up. Oh well...

jambled said:

I quite liked jay....He's the kind of man who succeeds in business but not in life. If he likes you he'll go to the wall for you but if you betray him he'll tear you down....

Yeah, I didn't think he was exactly as cold as most people felt. While very aggressive and confrontational, Jay did use this energy to break down the walls that kept out the "non-Ivy Leaguers" from the business world he worked in. I wouldn't be surprised if his sidekick was an old state-college buddy and non-Ivy Leaguer too. In this manner, Jay took care of his own people even if he wasn't so "lovable" person-to-person.

---

A very nice point about human nature was made in this episode: People's views and values change as their roles in society and in their families change. Tommy Dratton's view of his father evolved during his life as he went from rebellious teen, to lost young adult, to working professional, and finally as a father of his own son. This point was also brought up in Lilly's sidestory with Ellen. Nice parallels there.

[Disasterfreak]

OMG... it's true! I just figured it out while I was voting. I NEVER WATCHED THIS EPISODE!!!! Holy crap.

[eurache]

RE-airing on January 1st, 2008! ;D

[stillmanfan]

I thought it was a good episode and liked how they showed Scotty and Stillman looking at each other when Lilly talked about her mom dying.

I know this is an old thread but I think at the time, you guys had to think that Ellen's time was near. But I think they made her die too fast.