LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on Apr 30, 2007 12:46:57 GMT -5
@Naj: I didn't think what I posted contained spoilers, so apologies if I upset you. I thought I was simply referencing the general story arc that seems to be playing itself out as we wind down the season. It was meant to be a general observation, not a statement of what is going to happen.
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Post by Naj on Apr 30, 2007 12:49:20 GMT -5
My Uncle had end stage chirosis and my mom end stage renal. I think my mom just chose not to do anything. My Uncle couldn't restrain himself. To this day (just last night) I recalled how my aunt used to have to call each brother to go to the house. There were 3 brothers to my uncle. Dad would hop in his truck and the other two brothers would meet at my uncles house. I don't know what was going on. If he was belligerent or wouldn't stop drinking but I remember the last time my dad was called. They took him by ambulance for the last time and on the way to the hospital he died. There had been several runs where the brothers called the ambulance.
My mom didn't take care of herself but then she had it very rough raising three children and getting up every morning at 3:30 am and not going to bed until 10-11 at night. Her body was worn out from stress.
ETA: Also my mom had no restraint on eating the sweet foods and made little effort in keeping a diet. This went on for 20 years before she died.
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Post by Naj on Apr 30, 2007 12:50:12 GMT -5
Since I don't know what is going to happen I deleted it. I'll private message you on this.  @ Naj: I didn't think what I posted contained spoilers, so apologies if I upset you. I thought I was simply referencing the general story arc that seems to be playing itself out as we wind down the season. It was meant to be a general observation, not a statement of what is going to happen. |
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Post by riche on Apr 30, 2007 14:40:45 GMT -5
A good episode, but I do go along with LillyKat's "is that it?" when it comes to Lilly and her mother. I did expect more fireworks.
Clearly in the first confrontation was Lilly angry. She denied that her mother read to her, like the son denied remembering the beach to his father.
I think Lilly's accepted the inevitable and wants to make peace with her mother and let her go with dignity.
I had forgotten about the appearance of the young Lilly in the cast list so I didn't notice such scenes missing. Perhaps they were cut for length, and the references to the reading covered it anyway. Doing a flashback might have been overkill.
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coldcasegirl
Lilly Rush
Sleuthing for Clues [/color]
Posts: 2,279
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Post by coldcasegirl on Apr 30, 2007 17:29:28 GMT -5
;DWHOA! This was a whoooooooole lot better than what I expected! First off, the case was brilliant and very well thought out and performed, and the music was great too! Second, totally OMG! Lilly was about to cry when her mom walked out! Talk about phsyco crazy byotch! She made me so mad! I CANNOT believe that Lilly was wearing jeans and that shirt at the end! But OF FLIPPIN COURSE, she looked great! So fit!  I TOTALLY loved this episode, and especially how it connected with Lilly! She and the son were in the exact same position with a parent dying, and lying about remembering things! I loved how the writers did that  This was DEFINITLY a season best! ;D |
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Post by TVFan on Apr 30, 2007 21:43:05 GMT -5
I'm speechless as well. This episode was so powerful, sad, emotional, and simply amazing!! Definitely one of the season's best for me. It's one of those that stays with you for a few days. As sad as I found the case (and it was very difficult to watch this man slowly fall apart thanks to his disease), Lilly's story line was the most poignant. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped, and Ellen doesn't want to be helped. Lilly has little choice but to make the most of the time that she has left. She has spent so much time dwelling on the bad memories that she forgot the good ones. Kathryn was AMAZING!! This is going to be a difficult road for Lil because she has to put the past away, forgive and start over with her mother while she sits in frustration at her mother's current decision. Maybe things will change for Ellen and she'll decide to live, but as it stands now, it isn't looking too good. I didn't read the spoilers, but I'm guessing that the younger Lil and mom scenes were cut due to time. Since I wasn't expecting them, I didn't miss them and the episode seemed powerful enough without them. Thus, I'm guessing that the producers, writers, etc. felt the same way. It would have been fun to see them, though, now that I know they were supposed to be included. Yet another reason why we need the DVDs.  Kudos to Paris Barclay for a beautifully artistic hour! As always, more thoughts and caps at Pass the Remote. |
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irishkale
Retired Administrator 
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Post by irishkale on Apr 30, 2007 22:07:46 GMT -5
They could use that Younger Lilly/Younger Ellen footage in a future episode.. It was hopefully generic enough that it could be fit in elsewhere.
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
Posts: 2,514
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Post by boxman on May 1, 2007 5:30:55 GMT -5
.......THE GOOD DEATH...has to be The Best I've seen........It's affected deeply; more so, because I'm a nurse I guess....dealing with terminally ill patients and their families; I guess it hit to close to home for me..... Hi Katie! Welcome to the board! I kinda know what you mean... In college, I was required to take Theology classes, and one that I chose was a biomedical ethics class called "Ethics of Life and Death". It dealt with things such as abortion, euthanasia, and so forth. A good majority of the people in the class were students of the school's Nursing program. It's one class I remember well because of a number of great students taking the course, an excellent professor that taught us, and the way the whole course gave me a greater appreciation for those who go into your field. Up until then, I never fully realized just how much ethics, theology, and philosophy is needed in your profession, on top of the science and medical knowledge that is required.... ...Maybe the "white" is meant to represent the light people see before they die? They played this idea nicely, didn't they?? Especially in the vision Jay shared with his son. Did you notice how the seagull flies off into the distance towards the blaring sun?? I thought that sequence really visualized "the light people see before they die" rather well. Amelia's daughter envisioned butterflies, to which Amelia felt they were angels waiting to guide her daughter to Heaven. Similarly, the seagulls seemed to represent angels, there to let Jay know it's time to 'fly away'. I really liked the small detail of the first seagull standing in front of a mirror. Mirrors and reflections seem to sometimes represent a window into the spiritual world in this show, as done before in "Honor", "Static", and other episodes. The way Jay's visions took place at the Jersey Shore also pleased me. The idea of passing and being on the shore of a body of water--and going off to an "other shore"--is a theme of dying that is common among a lot of religions and spiritual beliefs... ...i think jay's regrets about who he became and coming to terms with his own conflicts was incredibly touch. redemption before his death.... ...I was pretty much turned off by Jay in the first 2 minutes, and I really didn’t recover from thinking the guy was a) an arse; b) got what he deserved. Even in the end, when he sort of “came around” and was trying to make amends with family, etc., I had a hard time feeling anything for him. In fact, I felt more for the wife and son than I did for Jay.... Oi, LillyKat! Do people deserve to get cancer because they've lost their soul to greed?? I can understand hoping for greedy people to lose their fortunes (and be incarcerated if they gained it through illicit means), but thinking greedy people deserve to die?? Mind you, there was no indication that Jay got wealthy through any illegal or immoral means. None at all. He was very aggressive, yes, but he was also not a Ken Lay or Jeff Skilling that systematically deceived people on his way to wealth and fortune. Remember now: State college, humble roots from Fishtown (the blue-collar Philly neighborhood mentioned in "Debut" and "The War at Home")... If not for the terrible husband and father he turned into, Jay is also an American, Horatio Algers-type of "rags-to-riches" success story too. Me thinks you need to be a bit more careful for the things you wish for, and who deserves what... This past year, I knew or was acquainted with three people who were diagnosed with cancer: A co-worker's father, another co-worker's husband, and a salesman I work directly with. Jay's hard-charging, aggressive, "A-Type" personality completely made me think of that salesman. That convicted nurse, Larry Kenick, is pretty much right about how something like this hits people who like to think of themselves as infallible. Seen it myself. Anyone remember in "3.17 Superstar", I mentioned that UPenn's medical school is built around a street named after Marie Curie?? Philadelphia is actually one of the best cities to be near for those diagnosed with cancer, because the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Radiology is considered "a world leader in radiological education and research". There are doctors here that can literally cure people who are not treatable elsewhere because of the ground-breaking research and treatments being developed at UPenn. I met a UPenn doctor/professor here who had his dad come to Philly to receive treatment from the school's hospital. He said that while he was happy he could do this (since he was a doctor there), he was also a bit ashamed that people, say in Kansas, diagnosed with the same disease, had a much smaller chance of receiving similar care and surviving. I find it funny how this show just loves to rip Philly apart.... UPenn's excellent reputation as a cancer treatment center also gave me a good chuckle at how Jay tore apart the CEO in the opening scenes. CEO Harvey favored Wharton grads over State College "losers", sending Jay on another career route that eventually brought him to own the very company he was rejected from years ago. So there's a lot of humorous irony that Wharton is UPenn's business school; a part of the same university that Jay could've gone to in order to receive world-class care and treatment for his cancer. (And of course, UPenn is Meredith Stiehm's alma mater, adding more to the humor! ) Anyway, sadly, my co-worker's father died of his cancer. This life event led my co-worker to quit and seek another career in Nursing, believe it or not. The other two survived, their treatments went well. Our salesman is "back to normal" and working again. (He went to UPenn's hospital for his treatments, btw.) Back in the office, we were thinking of collecting some funds to bribe his doctors in telling him he still was losing to his cancer... We liked him more "spiritual" and "reflective", rather than the "A-Type" that he's returned to... ...More than anything, I was extremely disappointed the scenes featuring Young Ellen and Young Lilly scenes were deleted / not included in the episode.... That's why you shouldn't read spoilers, LillyKat!!  ;D ...[Lilly] has spent so much time dwelling on the bad memories that she forgot the good ones.... ...Clearly in the first confrontation was Lilly angry. She denied that her mother read to her, like the son denied remembering the beach to his father.... ...I TOTALLY loved this episode, and especially how it connected with Lilly! She and the son were in the exact same position with a parent dying, and lying about remembering things! I loved how the writers did that I do too, ColdCaseGirl! I thought it was excellent how they wrapped the two together. When Kat interviews Jay's son, Tom says that he was "blind with hate". Jay tells his son,"You're always p!ssed off, and I know where you get it. But you got to let it go. It's poison." I've commented before how I just can't stand Lilly's little "white lies". But here, she was outright lying about Ellen not reading to her. We know this for sure, as she picks up "The Velveteen Rabbit" out of an old box. (Which was right under a stuffed rabbit, no less!) Jay and Tom's relationship really illuminates how Lilly and Ellen have turned this way... And yet, it also makes one wonder more about Lilly's recollection of her childhood jaw-breaking assault, doesn't it?? Kinda interesting how Lilly and Ellen's relationship was brought up through "The Velveteen Rabbit". If you folks remember, people who read fiction--especially American Literature--tend to be good characters in this show. For example, Patrick Bubley reads WEB DuBois, Roween reads in "Dog Day Afternoon", and so forth. Does this mean that Ellen might not be that bad of a mom?? HMMMMmmm..... ...I CANNOT believe that Lilly was wearing jeans and that shirt at the end! But OF FLIPPIN COURSE, she looked great! So fit! I think a lot of other people noticed that too... ;D Did anyone notice at the end during Lilly's interview with Caroline, when Lilly mentions loving someone that's dying, that Scotty looks up to Stillman?? Kinda made me think about Scotty and Elisa for a second. |
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
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"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on May 1, 2007 7:52:56 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but did anyone notice the similarities between this episode and episode 3:22 "The River" (I believe that was the name of the episode.)
Both of the victims were doctors or worked in a hospital.
Both of them had a problem of sort.
and the kicker?
Both of them are killed, but only after asking the killer to kill them.
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Post by dya91101 on May 1, 2007 8:33:43 GMT -5
Thank you!!! Have a good week everyone!!!
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 1, 2007 11:46:54 GMT -5
I just thought of something; back in the episode " Torn' When Lilly is reading Frances diary it says ' I remember mother reading to me as a child how the places described and how she is now' sound familiar to what Ellen mentioned to Lilly in this episode
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on May 1, 2007 12:40:44 GMT -5
Oi, LillyKat! Do people deserve to get cancer because they've lost their soul to greed?? I can understand hoping for greedy people to lose their fortunes (and be incarcerated if they gained it through illicit means), but thinking greedy people deserve to die??To be clear, boxman, I do not wish people to die - no matter who they are or what they do. I am, however, a firm believer in what goes around, comes around. In this case, I believe Jay got dealt back what was coming to him as a result of a lifetime of mistreating / misusing / manipulating people due to a variety of circumstances. That is how I saw his character. I'm going to stop posting in this thread as several of my comments are being substantially misinterpreted. I am sorry to have upset or offended anyone. |
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Post by frenchfan on May 1, 2007 13:07:45 GMT -5
I'm going to stop posting in this thread as several of my comments are being substantially misinterpreted. I am sorry to have upset or offended anyone. don’t do that, I like reading your comments and your points of view, sometimes different from the majority. I was never offended by your comments, you are a person so attentive. Edit : correction bad english! |
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Post by Naj on May 1, 2007 14:16:31 GMT -5
Don't leave, LillyKat.  Mercury must have gone retrograde.  Oi, LillyKat! Do people deserve to get cancer because they've lost their soul to greed?? I can understand hoping for greedy people to lose their fortunes (and be incarcerated if they gained it through illicit means), but thinking greedy people deserve to die??To be clear, boxman, I do not wish people to die - no matter who they are or what they do. I am, however, a firm believer in what goes around, comes around. In this case, I believe Jay got dealt back what was coming to him as a result of a lifetime of mistreating / misusing / manipulating people due to a variety of circumstances. That is how I saw his character. I'm going to stop posting in this thread as several of my comments are being substantially misinterpreted. I am sorry to have upset or offended anyone. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on May 1, 2007 15:13:24 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon LillyKat! I'm certainly not offended by your comments! I just don't see the correlation between what happened to Jay (his terminal cancer) and how he treated people.
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LillyKat
Lilly Rush
Loyal to Lil'
Posts: 1,132
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Post by LillyKat on May 1, 2007 16:16:21 GMT -5
@ frenchfan and Naj – thanks for your kind comments. @ Boxman: Look, I’m not sure what you were/are intending with your post(s), but suggesting that I want to see people die did not sit well with me. I didn’t think my original post was written to suggest this, but alas, that is my mistake for making that assumption. Since you interpreted my post in that severe of a way, I felt it necessary to apologize to anyone else who may read my post that way given it was the furthest thing from my mind when I wrote it, and I generally try very hard not to offend anyone when I write my thoughts on the episodes. Additionally, I wrote something Naj felt was spoilerish, even though that was not my intent, either. I felt badly I had done that to her, and I’m glad we have since resolved the issue. Since I am not batting .1000 in this thread, I know when to say when … so as not to continue to derail this thread, if you want to continue this offline, PM me. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 1, 2007 17:10:24 GMT -5
LillyKat- I wasn't either offended by your thoughts either
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Post by osmond71 on May 1, 2007 17:18:20 GMT -5
I thought this was one of the best episodes but hubby and I both missed the last 10 mins or so. Forgive me if this is posted somewhere else as I'm new to the board but I'm gathering the wife actually killed him but out of compassion? Is this right?
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Post by longislanditalian2 on May 1, 2007 17:24:08 GMT -5
I thought this was one of the best episodes but hubby and I both missed the last 10 mins or so. Forgive me if this is posted somewhere else as I'm new to the board but I'm gathering the wife actually killed him but out of compassion? Is this right? Yes she did, she didn't want her husband to suffer, but he did tell her about the morphine and about the beach; which did make her realize that this was the end and that he was in pain. |
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boxman
Lilly's Bedroom
Philly Reporter [/color]Foxy Boxy [/color]
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Post by boxman on May 1, 2007 18:20:28 GMT -5
@ Boxman: Look, I’m not sure what you were/are intending with your post(s), but suggesting that I want to see people die did not sit well with me.... , I hope we can clear this up. I just want to understand your perspective of this episode, especially when it seemed to have a lot of the elements I thought you enjoy out of this show. I apologize for misunderstanding your post. I simply responded to you by how I read and comprehended what you wrote. I think everyone here agrees that you are careful to not offend anyone, so this all simply comes down to a case of miscommunication and misunderstanding. It's certainly not bad intentions on either of our part. To explain my point of view, I work with a salesman who is nearly *exactly* like Jay, and who was also diagnosed with cancer earlier last year. He's demanding, hard to be around, extremely vocal, foul-mouthed, egotistical, occasionally inconsiderate to women, and often disrespectful towards police officers. Yet, at the same time, I like working with him because I know his hard-charging and aggressive attitude gets the job done for the team. Maybe this is where we have different views of Jay?? That I have more experience around guys like him so I accommodate these kind of guys more easily?? Certainly, I can understand it if you're normally not around people like this and can't see their good side. Here on the East Coast (and especially in Philly), they're not that uncommon...  |
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I TOTALLY loved this episode, and especially how it connected with Lilly! She and the son were in the exact same position with a parent dying, and lying about remembering things! I loved how the writers did that 
