Ep. 5.17 Slipping

[LillyKat]

I really enjoyed this episode. I can’t remember what episode last season I described as being “cool,” but this ep kinda falls into that category for me. I loved the look and feel. The fact it was an older case is always welcome to me since I prefer them to the newer cases (and I feel like I have to cherish the oldies more and more these days given they seem to be fewer and far between – LOL!). But what I really enjoyed the most was the ghost-story-what-goes-bump-in-the-night vibe it had from start to finish, not to mention a really clever twist at the end.

I like spooky stuff. I like ghost stuff. I liked mystery stuff. The entire episode kept me guessing, I was never sure who was what, etc. Yet, it wasn’t done in a way whereby I actually LOST track of who was what. I want to give kudos to Erica Shelton for creating a really intriguing, layered story that did not necessarily fit the predictable CC formula. IMHO, this one kind of went outside the box, and that was great to see.

And I LOVED how there was the touch back to Elisa’s death. That was just beautiful. There is/was still so much unresolved for Scotty as it pertains to the loss of her from his life, and I did enjoy seeing him get very passionate once again about the notion of someone committing suicide. We saw this in “Kensington,” when he confronted Monty at the end, and it is definitely a hot button issue for him, but in a much more sad, tragic way.

My only criticism was there was too little of Lilly in this episode, and I thought the whole get-over-your-mother’s-death thing could’ve been emphasized more. But then again, that would have downplayed the Scotty/Elisa throwback, and I actually PREFERRED that over the Lilly/mom thing because … well, I’ve given up on them ever truly having her deal with it, I confess I’m sort of sick of having it beaten into our heads that there IS still an issue. It’s like, cripes, get over it and move on. They did not, IMHO, deal with it well at all this season (two therapy sessions with 4 lines of dialog and a couple of nightmares didn’t cut for me).

That said, the scenes with Lilly did show her as much more “alive” (the zombie phase seems to have passed). And I just watched The Contender over the weekend, and I see now why Jerry Bruckheimer and Co. used that performance to pursue Kathryn Morris for the role of Lilly Rush. In this episode, there was some serious side-by-side- Lilly/Special Agent Paige Willomina (KM's role in The Contender) going on in her interrogation of Annette, and it wowed me. It was unexpected, and totally coincidental, but nice to see.

Brilliant guest casting of Frances Fisher and Ronny Cox!

Very strong episode. Production value was wonderful. Lighting was nicely cryptic in the old house (which totally reminded me of S1’s “Churchgoing People” house – LOL!). Strong performances all the way around.

[yankee1151]

My only criticism was there was too little of Lilly in this episode, and I thought the whole get-over-your-mother’s-death thing could’ve been emphasized more. But then again, that would have downplayed the Scotty/Elisa throwback, and I actually PREFERRED that over the Lilly/mom thing because … well, I’ve given up on them ever truly having her deal with it, I confess I’m sort of sick of having it beaten into our heads that there IS still an issue. It’s like, cripes, get over it and move on. They did not, IMHO, deal with it this well at all this season. Two therapy sessions with 4 lines of dialog and a couple of nightmares didn’t cut for me.

I agree with this one million percent.

That is all.

[eurache]

All I can say that this episode was awesome

Again, I love the flipping back and forth of "who done it".. I thought sure it was the housekeeper..

[mitchy]

Really loved this episode, thought the creepiness of the house was very well done - could have made a good Halloween episode.

I can't add much to what's already been said about the Scotty/Elisa followup, except to repeat it was beautifully acted by Danny Pino and extremely well done all round.

Jefferies got a girlfriend! Who makes apple pie! Marry her at once, man! Seriously, it's great to see Will getting in on the action a little and I adored that scene between Will and Nick in the rec room over the milk. That knowing smirk Nick gives at the end is just perfect.

Given how little time they had to pull this episode together, I thought it was extremely well done and up to the high standards we expect from the show. Makes me sad to realise we only have one more ep now until the end of the season

[riche]

So CC can bring up old issues (not the cases) and move them forward?!?

I remember Buffy used to start with a "previously on..." and they'd show something from a couple of seasons back and you'd think "was that a mistake?" and "why show me that?" It was always relevant. How many times have issues just gone missing on CC? Too many. Vera's adoption. The drunken phone call to Kite. George. The therapy. The shooting. Mother dying. Nick and his nurse.

We don't want CC becoming a soap opera but if you are going to set these things up at least follow through. Is Will going to get lots of slices of pie?

Sorry, rant over.


Anyway... good episode. I pegged Ronny Cox as the likely "doer" early on just because he's Ronny Cox. The old "he/she's the most famous guest star so it's him/her" rule so rarely fails. I was still not sure whether there was a murder or not for a while though. Have we ever had a case like that before.? It would have been unlikely that it was just a suicide, what with this being the homicide squad. But it might be nice if it happened one week. All show tracking down the suspects, putting it all together only to conclude that it was just an accident or a suicide.

It felt like there was lack of suspects in this one. The guy hanging around outside, for instance, was out of it before he'd even started. Not that any of that was a problem, you only need 1 after all.

I was a little troubled by all the "spooky goings on", not in a scared way but in the sense of being puzzled if they really could have pulled all that stuff off.

[Collider]

Apr 28, 2008 15:28:18 GMT -5 @riche said:

Anyway... good episode. I pegged Ronny Cox as the likely "doer" early on just because he's Ronny Cox. The old "he/she's the most famous guest star so it's him/her" rule so rarely fails.

Whoo. A perfect occasion for me to be proud of my status as the clueless moppit who wouldn't recognise a semi-famous guest star if he or she kicked me in the head unless he or she happens to also star in one of my other fandoms, which CC does seem to be terrifyingly good at, and who therein wouldn't have a clue who was more likely to be the 'doer' by that logic.

[qirjanran]

i thought it was a good episode! i was completely lost in the beginning first half... to be honest, the daughter and the husband both seemed so sweet and after we learned about nancy's mother being @ drummond and seeing rachel was locked in the trunk in the attic [omg, that was crazy], i thought maybe poor nancy really was showing symptoms and slowly losing her mind. but then when scotty went to visit rachel [more about that in a minute!] and she mentioned the poem sheet, i started putting things together. what a horrible horrible man. "pen of the gods", wth? how horrible. poor poor nancy.

it was nice to get a scotty-centric episode even if i was hoping for scotty/lilly!!! we did get that scene @ rachel's house in the beginning where you can tell lilly's still dealing with the death of her mom and scotty with alyssa. i really liked how scotty kept pushing the case and pursuing it further, he wouldn't just stop there. i do wish lilly had believed him but at least she shared a few words with him about the case and his past situation with alyssa... that can count as my scotty/lilly moment of the week haha.

but it was sad to see scotty still have unanswered questions about alyssa's death and be searching for answers. at least he helped another family find their answers. i'm glad he was the one to see nancy at the end. and i do love how his hand lingered and just... his face. seriously, danny pino, amaziiiing. not to mention, OHMIGOD, so gorgeous haha.

Apr 27, 2008 23:00:53 GMT -5 Janus said:

Oh honey, you have no idea what lurks in Lilly's pretty, troubled head.

haha, i was thinking the exact same thing lol! "hon, if only you KNEW all that she's dealt with, don't even lump her into a category of women who get all they want just by batting their eyelashes." lol.

i can't believe season finale next week! too early, i don't want it to end!!!! i'm planning on having myself a cold case marathon from the beginning over hte summer [well, i stopped @ mid-s2 haha] but i want new episodes! i'm hoping the finale will be awesome! and filled with scotty/lilly love. lol.

[boxman]

Apr 27, 2008 23:24:40 GMT -5 cellogal said:

One thing that kept bugging me throughout was that I kept thinking this episode would've been soooo much more enjoyable for soooo many reasons if it was aired two weeks ago, as a follow-up to the outstanding "The Road". For example, I thought that certain scenes in this episode make a nice continuation and follow-up to the Lilly/Scotty shipper storyline from "The Road". I'm not a 'shipper', but the scenes you folks mention above help make a lot of sense to me that something could happen between the two. On top of that, the new Jeffries love-interest storyline is looking sweet too. It also seems more plausible to me than seeing Lilly fall for Eddie..

As usual, you're absolutely right, boxman.

Oh stop it. You're embarrassing me...

...I thought "The Road" did an excellent job of showing how well Scotty understands Lilly, and this one showed, in just that brief little scene, how well Lilly understands Scotty. It would have been much more satisfying than barbeque bribery.

As usual, you absolutely found better words to say it than I possibly ever could, CelloGal. ;D

[boxman]

Apr 28, 2008 4:52:00 GMT -5 Collider said:

... but did anyone notice how long it took Scotty, at the end, to take his hand off the box? Almost as if he didn't want to let it go. I thought that was very very poignant....

That's a good catch, Collider! I watched this show like what RichE wrote--wondering if the housekeeper and husband could actually each pull off their individual deceptions. Therefore, I never really paused to notice such things. You had me thinking today that if this little scene was a subtle indication that Scotty has found some sort of closure with his past with Elissa, then not just Scotty, but the entire show is at a very interesting juncture.

We already know from previous episodes and storylines that one of the biggest reasons why Scotty became a cop was because he saw his older brother get abused by their coach. This injustice he witnessed against his brother gave Scotty a strong desire to help those who couldn't protect themselves from harm. As an important example, in "Sanctuary", Scotty steps out to the balcony and gives a 'confessional' to Vera, saying that one of his weaknesses with women is his tendency to latch onto those that he feels he can 'save'.

Now if Scotty has reached some sort of closure with Elissa's death, then Scotty is pretty much free of a lot of the "psychological strings" that have haunted and controlled his actions throughout his life. The abuse between his brother and coach has finally been resolved a while ago, Ana's killer was finally found and arrested, and this case has helped him overcome his grief with Elissa.

So here's the funny thing: Back in "The Road", John Smith posed the question of what would we humans be if we no longer had that "thing" that drove us to get up and go in the morning. John Smith claimed that without that "thing", people have no hope, no inspiration, no desire to go on living. Is that true with Scotty now? He no longer needs to be concerned about the crime against his brother, or Ana's murder, nor the grief of Elissa's death. Contrary to what John Smith was trying to say, I think that without these concerns anymore, Scotty is now more free to fully live his life, rather than lose any hope or desire to get up in the morning. Scotty is close to achieving what psychologists call self actualization: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_actualization

It's very, very interesting to me that Scotty's here, because it's also obvious to me that Lilly is not. Lilly definitely still hasn't resolved many of her issues ranging from her assault as a kid, her failed engagement, the loss of her mother, and so forth.

So my question now is: How does Lilly reorient herself towards growth? Is she going to do this herself? Or does a more sentient Scotty assist her??

[Collider]

Apr 29, 2008 1:08:09 GMT -5 boxman said:

It's very, very interesting to me that Scotty's here, because it's also obvious to me that Lilly is not. Lilly definitely still hasn't resolved many of her issues ranging from her assault as a kid, her failed engagement, the loss of her mother, and so forth.

So my question now is: How does Lilly reorient herself towards growth? Is she going to do this herself? Or does a more sentient Scotty assist her??

I think the problem they have with Lilly is that she's The Protagonist... which, in essence - from a writer's standpoint - pretty much means she's the one who kinda always needs to have some issue or another to be in the process of dealing with.

Your protagonist is the one whose existence fuels the show, technically speaking, so she's the one who constantly needs to have something to work through. Thus, that character more than any of the others can never really resolve all their issues or achieve any real sense of closure over too many of those issues... or else the writers have nothing to do with her except bring in a bunch of new ones to deal with (which, in the case of CC, results in it becoming soap-opera-esque, and Lil's personal life again taking precedence over the cases).

As soon as she is able to take all her problems and work through them and achieve that self-actualisation that - as you so rightly pointed out - Scotty is finally on his way to achieve, then the show is gonna need to find something different to focus on, because a self-actualised protagonist is going to get very boring very quickly and something fresher would need to step up in its place to keep the drama running... and I think Lilly is far too popular a character for that to ever happen (but those of us who are less, uh, 'appreciative' of Lil as a character can dream, can't we?). In terms of keeping Lilly at the forefront, though, and my own biases completely aside, it's pretty vital that they do keep all these issues floating around, and never truly deal with them.

They have a nice balance of issues, which is even now leaning slowly but surely towards 'too many'. If she works through these, and they decide to keep her at the forefront by throwing yet another one at her, that will inevitably bring up all the others all over again, for her to deal with again and again and again (because, such is the human psyche, that your current issues always end up bringing your old ones back to haunt you)... and the character will just become one of those melodramatic soap-opera caricatures who has way too many problems and issues and emotional traumas to ever be believable.

So, IMHO, it's better that they keep the half-a-million issues she does already have as "open-book", like they did with Scotty up till this point, which can sort of fade in and out of the main focus as and how the storyline suits, without ever needing to find some new and 'exciting' way to make sure Lilly Rush stays perpetually at the forefront. Like, I dunno, a new Emmy-Winning boyfriend or something lame like that.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm being even remotely clear in this, 'cause I know what I mean, but it's not really easily put into words. Feel free to leap on this and yell "but it makes no sense!".

[LillyKat]

Apr 29, 2008 6:33:52 GMT -5 Collider said:

I think the problem they have with Lilly is that she's The Protagonist... which, in essence - from a writer's standpoint - pretty much means she's the one who kinda always needs to have some issue or another to be in the process of dealing with.

Your protagonist is the one whose existence fuels the show, technically speaking, so she's the one who constantly needs to have something to work through. Thus, that character more than any of the others can never really resolve all their issues or achieve any real sense of closure over too many of those issues... or else the writers have nothing to do with her except bring in a bunch of new ones to deal with (which, in the case of CC, results in it becoming soap-opera-esque, and Lil's personal life again taking precedence over the cases).

As soon as she is able to take all her problems and work through them and achieve that self-actualisation that - as you so rightly pointed out - Scotty is finally on his way to achieve, then the show is gonna need to find something different to focus on, because a self-actualised protagonist is going to get very boring very quickly and something fresher would need to step up in its place to keep the drama running... and I think Lilly is far too popular a character for that to ever happen (but those of us who are less, uh, 'appreciative' of Lil as a character can dream, can't we?). In terms of keeping Lilly at the forefront, though, and my own biases completely aside, it's pretty vital that they do keep all these issues floating around, and never truly deal with them.

They have a nice balance of issues, which is even now leaning slowly but surely towards 'too many'. If she works through these, and they decide to keep her at the forefront by throwing yet another one at her, that will inevitably bring up all the others all over again, for her to deal with again and again and again (because, such is the human psyche, that your current issues always end up bringing your old ones back to haunt you)... and the character will just become one of those melodramatic soap-opera caricatures who has way too many problems and issues and emotional traumas to ever be believable.

So, IMHO, it's better that they keep the half-a-million issues she does already have as "open-book", like they did with Scotty up till this point, which can sort of fade in and out of the main focus as and how the storyline suits, without ever needing to find some new and 'exciting' way to make sure Lilly Rush stays perpetually at the forefront. Like, I dunno, a new Emmy-Winning boyfriend or something lame like that.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm being even remotely clear in this, 'cause I know what I mean, but it's not really easily put into words. Feel free to leap on this and yell "but it makes no sense!".

You bring up interesting points, Collider. I agree that the show has always had Lilly as the protagonist (though I believe the argument could be made that seems to be shifting in recent seasons). As such, she always has "something" going on, which on most shows, is a good thing.

But, IMHO, CC has gone way off the grid with how they've chosen to handle her "somethings." They never complete one thing with her, and as such, never move her beyond her perpetual state of disarray. Or, she moves forward so slowly that by the time she gets around to it (and the writers decide to actually commit to something), one doesn't care anymore/lost interest/forgot what the heck she was supposed to be dealing with in the first place. IMHO, that is asking quite a bit of your average viewer to keep remembering how much has not been deal with and/or to want to still care about a character when she seems so predictably bored and stuck. I'm not a ratings expert, but one could make the argument that is why less people are watching the show today than in the early seasons. Back then, there was a lot of Lilly's stuff on display; it was not on lock down and/or sent off on tangents. We got to see it in her, feel it in her. And yet, she was also still able to drive the cases without getting mired in muck. I believe there are still a lot of people today who watch because of Lilly, but what they see today is a far cry from what it was back then. Not only that, they are being given even fewer morsels of Lillyness to care about. At some point, viewers move on. They get tired of waiting. They don't want to have to think that long and hard about the past 5 seasons to figure out why the character is so confused, messed up, etc. or wait for one half-second glance to showcase "Hey, I'm really not over mom." IMHO, they want to see much more at some point, and as such, want to move on.

For me, the show has slipped into this routine of just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks, switching off to something else, forgetting they even did something before, etc. At some point, leaving the main character in a perpetual state of not dealing becomes almost like a farce. Arguably, one starts to not take her seriously. As much as I love this character, the fact they cannot give this protagonist some sense of closure on at least one issue is almost absurd to me at this point given we're about to enter the sixth season. How much more do we really know about her than we did during the early seasons? About a handful of things that have hardly changed and/or have hardly seen her move forward. That, to me, is poor handling of character growth and/or a wasted opportunity on a character that was truly compelling in the beginning but now seems to be like every other one on television. As such, I find Lilly less interesting and less compelling that she has to be so messed up all the time and/or so incapable of being able to deal. And for me, it has already ventured into the territory of not seeming real anymore. Obviously, she can't (and shouldn't) suddenly become Mary Poppins ... but a funeral for mom doesn't seem like a stretch. Or talking in therapy.

I've often referred to The Closer as an example of how to not fall into what seems to be the CC trap of stagnant character growth. After three seasons, I've never lost interest in Brenda Leigh Johnson. She's never appeared to be some shell of her former self. She's never become nearly unrecognizable in misery and despair. If anything, she's become more interesting, more compelling and more complex as the seasons have progressed, not worse off, more shut down, more aloof. Her flaws, imperfections and litany of her own "somethings" to deal with have her continually moving forward, and as such, so is the show. She is not stuck on "repeat" and/or predictable in her can't-deal-with-anything mode, and thus, draining viewers with the same ol', same ol'.

Just my two cents.

[yankee1151]

But, IMHO, CC has gone way off the grid with how they've chosen to handle her "somethings." They never complete one thing with her, and as such, never move her beyond her perpetual state of disarray. Or, she moves forward so slowly that by the time she gets around to it (and the writers decide to actually commit to something), one doesn't care anymore/lost interest/forgot what the heck she was supposed to be dealing with in the first place. IMHO, that is asking quite a bit of your average viewer to keep remembering how much has not been deal with and/or to want to still care about a character when she seems so predictably bored and stuck. I'm not a ratings expert, but one could make the argument that is why less people are watching the show today than in the early seasons. Back then, there was a lot of Lilly's stuff on display; it was not on lock down and/or sent off on tangents. We got to see it in her, feel it in her. And yet, she was also still able to drive the cases without getting mired in muck. I believe there are still a lot of people today who watch because of Lilly, but what they see today is a far cry from what it was back then. Not only that, they are being given even fewer morsels of Lillyness to care about. At some point, viewers move on. They get tired of waiting. They don't want to have to think that long and hard about the past 5 seasons to figure out why the character is so confused, messed up, etc. or wait for one half-second glance to showcase "Hey, I'm really not over mom." IMHO, they want to see much more at some point, and as such, want to move on.

For me, the show has slipped into this routine of just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks, switching off to something else, forgetting they even did something before, etc. At some point, leaving the main character in a perpetual state of not dealing becomes almost like a farce. Arguably, one starts to not take her seriously. As much as I love this character, the fact they cannot give this protagonist some sense of closure on at least one issue is almost absurd to me at this point given we're about to enter the sixth season. How much more do we really know about her than we did during the early seasons? About a handful of things that have hardly changed and/or have hardly seen her move forward. That, to me, is poor handling of character growth and/or a wasted opportunity on a character that was truly compelling in the beginning but now seems to be like every other one on television. As such, I find Lilly less interesting and less compelling that she has to be so messed up all the time and/or so incapable of being able to deal. And for me, it has already ventured into the territory of not seeming real anymore. Obviously, she can't (and shouldn't) suddenly become Mary Poppins ... but a funeral for mom doesn't seem like a stretch. Or talking in therapy.

Wow, I could not agree with this more. The difference between S1 Lilly and now is staggering, and I'm not just talking about her lips.

The weird thing is, not much has actually changed, in terms of her "story." She was always a workaholic, always a "loner," never very lucky with love, always had "mom issues" (whether her mom was dead or alive, she never really dealt with those issues), always had a bad relationship with her sister, never really willing to open up to anyone, blah blah blah I could go on... BUT. In the early seasons, she actually seemed to have a personality. We saw glimpses of a sense of humor, even. I feel like if S1 Lilly got shot and had problems focusing on her job because of it, she would have done something about it. When a case affected her in a personal way, we knew why. As much as I HATED "Fly Away" that scene where she tells Scotty how crap her childhood was, was awesome. I feel like S5 Lilly would never, ever do that. She'd walk around all bothered, and everyone would know something was wrong, but she wouldn't say jack. Then, the case would be solved, we'd get like, a 1/2 smile from her in the montage, and whatever "issue" it was that was bothering her would never be alluded to again. And as much as I loved "The Road," I feel like that was supposed to be Lilly's closure about... everything. Granted we've only had a couple eps since then, but nary a mention of nightmares, lack of sleep, what have you.

Though we didn't see much of Lilly this ep, it was a prime example of the show just sweeping her issues under the rug yet making it clear that she still obviously has them. Duh. What's the point? She acted all peeved that Scotty took the case personally (pot meet kettle), and not once was there a single acknowledgement that maybe she did, too (because of the mommy issues). Quite frankly, they have turned her into a total rag, with very few glimpses of likability. And you have no idea how much it pains me to admit that. Because I really do love the character. or used to? Not sure yet.

Thing is, we GET IT. She's a mess. But even messed up people have personalities, for better or worse. Clearly, in S1/S2, she hadn't sunk so deep, but now the writers keep hitting us over the head with the fact that she's NOT ok. So then what? The solution is to just turn her into a shell of her former self and hope people a)don't notice or b)embrace the new-but-decidedly-NOT-improved Lilly Rush? Why even give her these storylines, these "issues" in the first place? Where's the payoff? Ugh. Like you say LillyKat, it's really at the point where people HAVE to stop giving a crap. It's really really hard to stay invested in Lilly's story when the story goes absolutely nowhere, and in the meantime we have to watch a sullen, snippy bore in the (albeit thinner) body of a character the majority of us used to actively love and root for. Sadly, I still do - but maybe not for much longer.

[boxman]

Well, just to be fair, we have to keep in mind that the writer's strike has affected pretty much every show this season. Cold Case got cut at its half-season point, and we know from reports that the show's writers didn't rush to write additional episodes for the film crew to keep working. Therefore in a normal season, we'd have about eleven episodes after 5.13 "Spiders"; but given the strike and the absence of reserve episodes, the season is ending after only five.

Now if you're one of the producers for the show, what do you do when suddenly you've got only five cards to play? I would think that 5.18 "Ghost of My Child" was chosen because of some kind of element that makes it a good season finale. "Slipping" was chosen because it closes a Scotty arc, opens a Jeffries arc, and has that little something to make people wonder about a Lilly-Scotty relationship. "The Road" is an obvious choice as it's a powerful story, it satisfies the shippers, and apparently it is integral to Lilly's long-term story arc. "Andy in C Minor" was probably chosen because it's a strong story, and the episode continues and closes Kat's story arc from "Spiders". Finally, "Bad Reputation" was a necessary choice because it introduces Saccardo, who appears later in the finale.

The post-strike episodes were presented in this order:
"Andy in C Minor"
"The Road"
"Bad Reputation"
"Slipping"
"Ghost of My Child"

Earlier, I suggested this order:
"Andy in C Minor"
"The Road"
"Slipping"
"Bad Reputation"
"Ghost of My Child"

Initially, I thought my order makes perfect sense because of the "Road"/"Slipping" pairing. But my sequence of episodes would also make the season end with "Bad Reputation" leading directly into "Ghost of My Child". This wouldn't make sense. For one thing, "Bad Reputation" is simply too "Guy Heavy" to lead up to the finale. Plus, given the chance that the audience may feel that New Guy wasn't great (which is exactly what happened), then it would've been completely disastrous to have put two New Guy episodes back-to-back to end the season.

So anyway, my point is that we're missing six episodes that may have closed up several of Lilly's stories and issues. Now I still agree with LillyKat that the show has missed some previous opportunities to get started with this, especially as she suggests with the chance to dramatize Ellen's funeral (which I'll go into later sometime). Still, I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt that they didn't intend to end this season with Lilly in the doldrums like this. With the limited amount of episodes available, it probably made sense to push Lilly's "recovery" into season six, rather than hasten her "recovery" in season five.

Apr 29, 2008 6:33:52 GMT -5 Collider said:

I'm not entirely sure if I'm being even remotely clear in this, 'cause I know what I mean, but it's not really easily put into words. Feel free to leap on this and yell "but it makes no sense!".

Oh, I understand what you're saying her, Collider. I just don't agree with you. ;D What you propose would make absolutely perfect sense to me if this show was a Drama. Most police/detective shows tend to draw an audience that's interested in action and heroes, so a lead character with continuously unresolved problems doesn't really make much sense to me in this genre. Fortunately for myself, I don't really care much for S1 and S2 Lilly; and also unlike the majority of others here, I think she slowly began to mature in later seasons when she quit lying, quit flirting with suspects, and began to spend more time reflecting on her life. This is rather unlike the earlier Lilly who used her so-called "busy-ness" with her career to avoid dealing with her long-standing personal issues and relationships with men. Still, I have to admit I also tend to wish the show would be less ambiguous and a little more forthright and frequent about presenting to us what's going on in Lilly's head.

[toddsmitts]

Apr 28, 2008 15:28:18 GMT -5 @riche said:

Anyway... good episode. I pegged Ronny Cox as the likely "doer" early on just because he's Ronny Cox. The old "he/she's the most famous guest star so it's him/her" rule so rarely fails.

True. The "Law & Order" franchise is notorious for this. You have three suspects: two played by nameless New York actors and one by a famous Oscar-nomitated actor who typically only does movies. Now who do you think is gonna be the doer?

For this reason, I was pleasantly surprised when Bruce Boxleitner DIDN'T do it in "The Goodbye Room".

Truthfully, I was actually made more wary by the fact that he seemed rather ambivalent about the idea that his wife may have been murdered.

I was actually a bit disappointed that it was him. It's not a big thing and I know statistically a woman's killer is usually a husband/boyfriend but the husband being the killer's just been done a few times already ("Gleen", "Factory Girls", "World's End", and probably a few others I can't recall).

Apr 28, 2008 15:28:18 GMT -5 @riche said:

I was still not sure whether there was a murder or not for a while though. Have we ever had a case like that before.? It would have been unlikely that it was just a suicide, what with this being the homicide squad. But it might be nice if it happened one week. All show tracking down the suspects, putting it all together only to conclude that it was just an accident or a suicide.

It felt like there was lack of suspects in this one. The guy hanging around outside, for instance, was out of it before he'd even started. Not that any of that was a problem, you only need 1 after all.

I actually think it would have been a neater twist is if she really DID kill herself. I think the victim committing suicide's only been done once ("Daniela"). It would have just been a really interesting twist.

I'd also love it if they once hit a dead end and they don't know who did it. Not "they know who did it but can't prove it" like with George, but they honestly don't know who did it and that's how the episode ends. That seems like a realistic possibility when you're dealing with decades-old cases.

[Collider]

Apr 29, 2008 13:45:31 GMT -5 LillyKat said:

For me, the show has slipped into this routine of just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks, switching off to something else, forgetting they even did something before, etc.

While I can see where you're coming from here, I guess it just doesn't bug me so much (or it could be that Lil -does- and therein it's not like they could possibly damage her any more in my eyes, which I'll grant is possibly a factor)... but I just had to make the point that the whole 'throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks' bit is quite possibly the awesomest metaphor in the history of the world.

Apr 29, 2008 23:53:56 GMT -5 boxman said:

Oh, I understand what you're saying her, Collider. I just don't agree with you. ;D What you propose would make absolutely perfect sense to me if this show was a Drama. Most police/detective shows tend to draw an audience that's interested in action and heroes, so a lead character with continuously unresolved problems doesn't really make much sense to me in this genre.

Wow, you got me. I'll be honest; this is the first cop show I've ever had any remote interest in. Half my fandoms are sci-fi, and the rest are drama-comedies. So you're probably spot-on with this observation... and it's a neat reminder for me, who's still new here, that this isn't the run-of-the-mill fandom and does bring a whole different set of genric rules. 'Cause, yea, a lot of my assertations are based on my own fandom experiences, which - again - aren't even remotely police/detective based. Needless to say, I'm kind of learning the ropes as I go along.

Apr 29, 2008 23:53:56 GMT -5 boxman said:

Fortunately for myself, I don't really care much for S1 and S2 Lilly; and also unlike the majority of others here, I think she slowly began to mature in later seasons when she quit lying, quit flirting with suspects, and began to spend more time reflecting on her life. This is rather unlike the earlier Lilly who used her so-called "busy-ness" with her career to avoid dealing with her long-standing personal issues and relationships with men. Still, I have to admit I also tend to wish the show would be less ambiguous and a little more forthright and frequent about presenting to us what's going on in Lilly's head.

Now that you've said it... I actually think the forthrightness you want might actually stop me disliking the bloody woman quite so much. Frequentness, probably less so (*g*)... but, yea, I could get behind them coming out and making a point of saying "this is where she is, this is where she was, and this is where she will be", instead of trying to tell the whole thing in a couple of Meaningful Looks or whatnot. It might make her slightly less grating, if not out-and-out likeable.

[boxman]

Apr 30, 2008 1:05:22 GMT -5 Collider said:

...Half my fandoms are sci-fi, and the rest are drama-comedies...

Really? Sci-Fi? Then perhaps you already know that KM played Tom Cruise's wife in "Minority Report":

The reason I mention this is because "Lara (Clarke) Anderton" is just one example of several strong and feminine characters KM has played in the past. One of the reasons why I don't really think Lilly will be left in a perpetual "zombie" state is that it would be such a waste of talent to cast KM for Lilly if this were the case. I have my long-term hope that we'll see this kind of "strong and feminine" character emerge with Lilly (sans lying, misplaced flirting, etc) some day.

and it's a neat reminder for me, who's still new here, that this isn't the run-of-the-mill fandom and does bring a whole different set of genric rules. 'Cause, yea, a lot of my assertations are based on my own fandom experiences, which - again - aren't even remotely police/detective based...

Wow, that's so different from me... I began watching cop shows all the way back in the early 70s as a kid: "The FBI", "Kojak", "Columbo", "Streets of San Francisco", "Hawaii Five-O" and so forth.

[LillyKat]

Apr 29, 2008 23:53:56 GMT -5 boxman said:

Well, just to be fair, we have to keep in mind that the writer's strike has affected pretty much every show this season. Cold Case got cut at its half-season point, and we know from reports that the show's writers didn't rush to write additional episodes for the film crew to keep working. Therefore in a normal season, we'd have about eleven episodes after 5.13 "Spiders"; but given the strike and the absence of reserve episodes, the season is ending after only five.

IMHO, they weren't doing much with Lilly's progression BEFORE the writers strike. Or last season. Or the season before that. Or what they did try, they abandoned before anything real could truly be explored (the up-and-out four episode curse/routine; as in, nothing ever goes beyond four episodes anymore, which I find odd considering the Christina arc was given 10 episodes to develop in Season 2).

Writers strike aside, IMHO, this is an on-going problem with the show, not something that has developed because season five is 6 episodes shorter than it should be. I would venture to guess that even if it was a full season, I'd still have the same complaint given I had the SAME complaint last season - and it WAS a full order.

As far as season five is concerned, they had dropped her therapy. They were beating it into our heads she was still nightmare-ish to the point of, as yankee1151 aptly points out, "Ok. We get it. Next?" Lilly hadn't opened her mouth to anyone to talk about anything - mom, being shot at, break-ups, lack of ... I don't know ... anyone and anything in her life. yankee1151 also brings up an excellent point, IMHO, that early season Lilly would've opened her mouth and said something by this point, not just wandered around all pent up and silent. That shift is problematic to me because I liked her then, and what she has become now, whilst perhaps mature, is far less interesting in her silent zombie mode. And quite frankly, I'm bored with that routine.

Do I want them to cram stuff into five final episodes? No. Did the strike affect stuff? Yes, but it should not be used as the excuse given the previous season's failures.

Collider: Consider yourself lucky you aren't so invested in the Lilly character ... makes it much easier to enjoy the show these days! LOL!

[longislanditalian2]

As I watched this six times already, I see Lilly finding herself. Wait she's not in any relationship but snapped out of the "Zombie Mode", that's a first.

Perhaps that John Smith character from " The Road" was a positive thing for her though he was plain crazy. He got her to reexamine her own life and try to understand what she can't change anything in the past, but what I saw was in the end, Lilly came home to where she came from realizing she came out of this place a stronger person.

Now in this episode Lilly is pretty strong and focused, but Scotty still gets me. In " Start up" he places Elisa's note down in the river acceping her death but in this episode he's thinking about her still. Sure she didn't say goodbye but perhaps because she was his first love someone he truely loved.

Wereas Lilly got a last goodbye from her mother in Stalker she did say" Bye Baby". Does Lilly miss her of course but you can tell she is trying to move on, but in the beginning she says" Losing a parent at that age can be hard". Is this something to do with her father leaving or did he die, in 4X03" Sandhogs" She tell what's his face that she looks for him during her high school graduation, hoping he be there.

Maybe it's possible Lilly said that b/c he is dead or she no longer thinks of him knowing he doesn't love her? Anything's possible but as far as her mother is concerned she knows she can't change what her mother had done like Rachel and had to accept it. Perhaps Lilly might remember the good times which there were, instead.

I think Scotty's problem is that he blames himself for other people's problems but never tries to work out his own. Part of his anger and frustration stems from that but tries to help Lilly knowing she won't let anyone help her, I think I see a connection between the two.

All in all this episode was prerrty good, at least Lilly's coming back to her normal self and her makeup looked perfect not ghostlike.

[TVFan]

WORD to your entire first post on this page, LillyKat (and your second for that matter ).

The biggest problem with current Lilly is she seems to have lost that self-assuredness that made her so appealing to me. She could take on any situation, face any bad guy, and solve any case with her expert interrogation skills. Was she damaged? Sure! But, it was different than now. As Kathryn used to always say, she was "perfectly imperfect." Her issues were a part of her, but they didn't define her as they do now. Her life was about solving these cases and getting justice for her victims. It gave her meaning and I think, giving others justice allowed her to feel a little justice of her own. She seemed more fulfilled. Happier, yet harboring a hidden somberness underneath that kept me intrigued and hanging on every word. Now, though, she just seems somber. I'll admit that she has been better as of late, but she's still not where she should be.

I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt because of the writers strike. I know it put a damper of many shows and broke up the creative process right in the middle of the season. But, this will only hold if things improve for Lilly next season. It's hard for me because she's still my favorite character on television -- maybe that's out of loyalty to the character or the wonderful Kathryn Morris -- and yet, I do find her to be both less interesting and likable in the past couple of seasons. I REALLY hope that changes. Lil deserves better.

[longislanditalian2]

I agree with you on this TVFan, it's nice to see her not so sad.