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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 2, 2009 2:20:32 GMT -5
After seeing Wasp, I dislike even more the road they're having Lily go down on.
Yes, the $#@@ who tried to kill her shouldn't be out on bail. But the fact remains that until twelve people stand up in court and say the words guilty, Moe is considered innocent. Lily has no right to stalk and harass him the way she's been doing. Innocent until proven guilty exists for a reason and applies to all, even scumbags like Moe.
She is slowly becoming what many Cold Case doers became. Someone who is so convinced they are doing the right thing they break the laws or betray a belief system they once upheld.
If nothing else, it angers me that Lily knows how much pressure her squad is under. Kat has already been transfered and the deputy commish is always looking to cut it even more. Lily knows this and even after Moe files a report on her,still keeps harassing him. That angers me. She doesn't have the right to take others with her because of her anger over Moe. The fact she keeps doing it even after Stillman warns her of what could happen, that others could be hurt because of her vendetta, angers me. I know it's tough but Lily needs to think of the other people that could be harmed from her actions and let the justice system takes it course.
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madmax
Sergeant
25%
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Post by madmax on Nov 2, 2009 2:59:30 GMT -5
I agree with you ninja 100%. What writers are doing is crazy. Lilly is now obsessed with Moe and does things without thinking about the consequences to the rest. Like you said, Doherty is out on the mission to take Stillman out and Lilly's actions are making it easier. Moe, whether he tried to kill Lil or not, is innocent until proven guilty. Lilly knows that well. Besides from what it looks like Moe is not interested in making Lilly suffer in any way. It's her that pushes him over the edge. I like the family plot of the CC, and I can live with L+Eddie plot, but how writers are making Lil into some crazy revenge obsessed woman is complete BS!
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605 
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 2, 2009 10:51:48 GMT -5
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but in this episode? It was Moe who stalked Lilly. NOT the other way around. Recall that Lilly was in her vehicle, talking to Eddie, "Yeah, I'll be there in ten minutes"
AND THEN suddenly Moe shows up, and starts talking to her. Also as I recall, Lilly seemed pretty damn scared. Heck, that's why it shows her adjusting the mirrors.
Lilly's actions are those of a scared woman who's been denied justice, and seeking revenge. They are NOT the actions of a blood thirsty psychopathic woman who wants revenge just for giggles and kicks.
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 2, 2009 11:27:38 GMT -5
Never said they were the acts of a crazed woman.. But she isn't a scared one either. And while he may be stalking her as the scene with the car showed, Lily has also been stalking him. Putting the boot on his car, waiting for him outside the bank and waiting for him with her car outside the bar the one time, all in an effort to get him to crack, is also stalking and harrassment.
And she hasn't been denied justice. The words not guilty have not yet been applied to Moe's case. Yes, it irks me he got out on bail but it's a right many defendents have, just like they have a right to a trial. Moe deserves to have the book thrown at him... but her many actions could also deny her the very justice she seeks.
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 2, 2009 12:54:23 GMT -5
I'm not denying that she had been stalking him, but she did that in the first, and third episodes of this season. NOT this episode. Moe was the one stalking her this episode.
and yeah, she was scared. The way she kept saying, "Back away, now!" maybe you don't pick up on vocal cues, but I do. She sounded scared, and the way she adjusted the mirrors? Remember, she was rammed from behind. She's scared that Moe is going to hit her vehicle from behind.
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 2, 2009 13:10:37 GMT -5
Well.... she was waiting for him outside the bank he was at right at the beginning of the show to taunt him about his job loss and the parking fines. So she was still stalking him. As for what happened later.... she keeps pushing and pushing him closer to the edge (she admits as much),why should she be shocked that he would show up like he did? Sorry, I can't be on Lily's side in this.
Moe is a %#@ but Lily's actions are putting others at risk as well as herself.
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toddsmitts
Veteran Detective
WIKI WIKI BOY [/color]
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Post by toddsmitts on Nov 2, 2009 13:48:41 GMT -5
I feel I should remind people that drama is based on conflict and about putting people in situations where they'll come into conflict with each other. Both Lilly and Moe have been put in increasingly shaky situations, which have the potential to become more and more of a powder keg. Actually what a good portion of doers on the show are is fairly ordinary people who suddenly find themselves in a desperate situation. Say a friend is backing out of a partnership to go be with someone. You can't believe they're willing to throw away everything you've been working for. You go find them to talk some sense into them, to appeal to them, but they won't change their mind and start to leave. You get frustrated and grab them by the arm just to try and stop them from walking away. You end up shaking them a little harder than you meant to, and before you know it, without meaning to, you've knocked your best friend off a balcony.  If someone had tried to kill you and was still out on the streets, and you had a chance to screw them over a bit, one wonders if you wouldn't at least consider it. |
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 2, 2009 14:21:29 GMT -5
Consider it..? Probably but actually doing it is another. As Naj said in the WASP forum, Lily is so much smarter than her actions of late have shown.
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 2, 2009 18:28:32 GMT -5
So, ninja, what you're saying is that Moe was completely justified in going after Lilly, but not the other way around?
Yes, Lilly is smart, but one of the things she's starting to learn is that the very thing that's supposed to protect her, isn't doing it's job. Now, looking at it through Lilly's eyes, she feels that she has one of three options.
Option 1: Do nothing, and run the risk of Moe attacking her again. Perhaps, if she's attacked, maybe this time the law will do something.
Option 2: Do a lot of pity crap in order to get revenge. (This is what Lilly is doing now.)
Option 3: Kill Moe.
Let's keep in mind that she hasn't actually gone up, and killed Moe...
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 2, 2009 22:49:53 GMT -5
Never said he was justified in going after Lily in this episode. But the fact remains the law doesn't allow you to take revenge. Nothing good can come out of the road Lily is down on now and if she ends up having to kill him, the actions she's taken most certainly will come back to haunt her.
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Post by lillyfan on Nov 3, 2009 9:12:59 GMT -5
Ninja, I do agree with you to a point. I think Lilly is scared though and fear makes us do incredibly stupid things. She may not be acting scared but I think she's putting up a front and acting like she's not afraid and we all know that Lilly's the pro at putting up fronts and she doesn't always think with her head but more with her heart and she feels she's been wronged, which she has. I think she's trying to show Moe that she's not going to back down just because he tried to kill her (and I do believe that was his intent when he pushed her off the bridge). Is she handling it the right way? absolutely not. But if I was in her shoes...well, I'd like to say I'd be completely sane and rational but I don't know that for sure, yeah I'd probably go off the deep end. And to my recollection, after Stillman warned her to back off she did it seemed. Like TRB mentioned, she was in her car minding her business and Moe was harassing her this time. Reaching for the gun is probably the first thing any human being would do, I mean he tried to kill her before who's to say he wouldn't try it again, he could've been packing to. And adjusting the mirrors seemed like a sign of fear, it's like looking over your shoulder so I think she's definitely scared. Besides I'm enjoying the cat and mouse game they have going on this season with Lilly and Moe. It's pretty interesting to me to see who's going to make the first move and at least she didn't turn into a zombie this season like she did after she got shot so I like the route they're taking with Lilly, personally.
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 3, 2009 11:30:12 GMT -5
So why is this whole post about how Lilly is in the wrong, but nothing mentioned about what Moe's doing?
I don't agree with Lilly going after Moe, but I do understand that she is human. To put it clearly, I don't condone what she's doing, but I can't condemn her either.
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Post by Trublu on Nov 3, 2009 12:33:50 GMT -5
I think we should also keep in mind that Lilly has never really been in a situation like this before, and so we don't really have anything to compare this to. Maybe season 1 Lilly wouldn't have acted this way... but maybe she might have. We don't know. Fact is, look at other characters on crime shows. They do the exact same thing Lilly is doing, put a little pressure on the "bad guy" to get him/her to mess up.
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 3, 2009 12:56:50 GMT -5
I agree with you TruBlu. I just don't want to take Lily to the point where she's nothing more than a bully with a badge. By the end of its run, Without A Trace showed Jack Malone being able to punch and torture suspects without a single consquence. The Closer and the various L & O shows are also guilty of this.
I guess my gripe is, Lily certainly shouldn't be shown as a scared victim. But I don't want her to go the route some of the other tv cops have gone and betray the badge she wears.
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 3, 2009 13:33:02 GMT -5
We also need to realize that everyone has a breaking point. Lilly's grown up with an abusive and alcoholic mother; was attacked at age ten; there are heavy implications that she wasn't a 'sweet innocent' girl when she was a teenager; had her mind 'raped' by a serial killer; shot said killer; had to care for her alcoholic mother; was shot by some guy; became a zombie; met a guy, guy leaves; meets her estranged father; gets into a fight with her father; she's shoved off a bridge into a body of water; nearly drowns/dies; her attacker is released on bail.
I'm rather surprised that she didn't break BEFORE this time.
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Post by niiny on Nov 3, 2009 14:43:12 GMT -5
We also need to realize that everyone has a breaking point. Lilly's grown up with an abusive and alcoholic mother; was attacked at age ten; there are heavy implications that she wasn't a 'sweet innocent' girl when she was a teenager; had her mind 'raped' by a serial killer; shot said killer; had to care for her alcoholic mother; was shot by some guy; became a zombie; met a guy, guy leaves; meets her estranged father; gets into a fight with her father; she's shoved off a bridge into a body of water; nearly drowns/dies; her attacker is released on bail. I'm rather surprised that she didn't break BEFORE this time. The drop of water that makes the vase overflow. Lilly will only stalk him not more i can't imagine her kill him ( Imagine... Lilly and moe in a dark little street in a lost district shooting him ??  ) |
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 3, 2009 18:32:55 GMT -5
It's entirely possible that she might kill him, but what she MIGHT do is provoke Moe into attacking her, then shoot him, and claim self defense.
Interestingly enough, such an act would place Lilly on the fourth level of 'the scale of evil'. A scale that's said to measure how evil a killer is.
04 - Kill in self-defense, but had been extremely provocative towards the victim.
But, and here's hoping that they don' go here (or the other way either), Lilly could just kill Moe out of anger. This would place her at the eighth level.
08 - Non psychopathic people with smoldering rage who kill when rage is ignited
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 10, 2009 5:24:14 GMT -5
And that is my problem... I'd rather not see Lily on any scale of evil. She's too good for that.
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The Reverend Bizarre
Lilly Rush
10 0011 10101 [/b][/color]
"The way your prophet breaks his bread does not speak the future." - Mephirostus
Posts: 2,605
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Post by The Reverend Bizarre on Nov 10, 2009 13:54:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately, all of us have the potential to be on that scale, and believe it or not, Lilly already IS on the scale at level 1.
01 - Those who kill in self defense (Killed George Marks in 'The Woods')
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Post by ninja1088 on Nov 11, 2009 17:32:08 GMT -5
Heh... I could accept level one I guess.... I just don't want the writers to take Lily on a inreedemable path. The show deserves a better ending than that.
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