Episode 3.14: Dog Day Afternoons

[boxman]

pixie said:

It sounds like everybody is soooo unhappy about MC guy & Lilly was it really so bad?

And the case was it a "typical" Victim meets murder, promise to rob a bank share the money, then shoots the victim etc.??

That's all I need to know. ;D

The Lilly/Ray story really threw me off--it wasn't what I expected, it didn't seem that much of Ray's inner character and past was revealed, and there really wasn't an ending to their story. Lots of unanswerd questions. (I guess that's good because it leaves the story open for the writers.)

As simple as the case was, it was a relief cause it let me focus on the Lilly/Ray story the first time. I watched the episode several times later, and the details in the case made a simple story a good one to think about.

[longislanditalian2]

I wish the reveled about their past, or at least a flashback. Anyway i'm glad he came back to her

[frenchfan]

I didn’t see this episode and it is very difficult to me take share with the debate. But I cannot prevent me. It doesn’t seem impossible to me that Lilly can want to live something with Ray again. I think that she needs to alive again, finally as when she was 20 years old ; a kind of unconcern with delayed-action, a need for madness, which it does not show in general and which can seems to us strange. But I think that Lilly has that in her. Even if she is certainly conscious of the ditch which exists between her life today and Ray . Even if she knows that the lost years are not caught up, and that one doesn’t live again what is finished. Even if she also knows that a new attachment in love with Ray could make him much evil. Perhaps passion will be stronger.
(Sorry, if I am really out-subject compared to the episode. But it's what I would think if one announced to me the return of the MM., and sorry for my french english)

[longislanditalian2]

I think Lilly is more mature now , I think she knows what she wants . Her walls are coming down , i agree with frenchfan it isn't impossible for Ray and Lilly to rekindle their relationship. During this course of this episode ray seems very interested in lilly ,she acts different then when she was with kite. I think she feels very comfortable with him around, he might be the one who knows.The part i really liked most was when Ray told her that he was pround of her becoming a cop , the look on Lilly's face was priceless. It was like all this time nobody even told her that they were proud of her , this what she needed to hear the most.

[TVFan]

sonny said:

ITo me all of lilly's actions made sense when taking into context everything that has gone on before. Yeah, sure there was new element that we hadn't seen before, but it was believeable to me.

I couldn't agree more with this statement sonny. And I agree that the Ray/Lilly together storyline is fine. It's just the way it was presented that disappointed me. I wanted to see some romance and fire between these two, but all we got was some interesting scenes that didn't reveal why Lilly is so drawn to this guy that she would contact years after they last met. I get that she's in a very reflective mood this season and kind of wondering where her personal life is, but I wanted to know why this guy. This is why I'm hoping they do bring him back. I think there's a lot of story left to tell and a lot that we haven't been told about their past.

You know, I think it's difficult for a show to bring in a new character that begins a relationship with the favorite character without properly introducing him. This goes back to a discussion that was brought up at the Veronica Mars thing I went to earlier this week. I think the assumption from the writing standpoint is that the audience will love this new character because Lilly does (the same has been said about Veronica and Duncan and this is why we were discussing this at the event). The problem is that the audience has a vested interest in these characters, so we're not going to just accept someone because Lilly likes him unless we understand WHY she likes him. The bad boy cliche and feeling needy didn't cut it. I wanted to see why he's so great and I wanted to SEE how he feels about her, and her, him. It didn't happen. Instead, we were given some sort of sorid hook-up/booty call scenario that was frustrating - not because it didn't fit Lilly's character at that moment (which in retrospect while writing this, it sounds out of character, but in the context of the episode it worked), but because we didn't understand why Ray. And then you add in the factor that we weren't privy to much of this "relationship" and it just seems odd (for instance, how long have these two been hooking up? Why didn't we know about it?). Again, this is why we need more of it to better understand it and allow the relationship to grow on us. Otherwise, it just seems like an idea with tremdous potential that fell flat. IMO

Anyway, I'm really enjoying the mixed discussion on this relationship and the episode as a whole. It's nice to see the varying viewpoints. If nothing else, this relationship brings out some great discussion!

[Naj]

I'm wondering if this lack of relationship was to show that Lilly is human too and does things at times just for self gratification. It's like they knocked her down a few more pegs. I was hoping she had some better class but she's no better than Scotty. Disappointing.

[longislanditalian2]

Good Point Tv Fan, we do need to understand why lilly likes Ray. Maybe if the episode itself explained a little more about their past we would understand the conflict btwn them ....

[sonny]

Well said TVFan, I totally agree. I to like how much discussion this episode has created!
You say you wanted to see how Ray and Lilly felt about eachother which I would have liked to have seen more of too. The picture wasn't painted to clear; I mean they are clearly attrcted to one another through all the looks they were giving, but neither of them were prepared to give up or 'ditch work' for the other. Will they find a compromise; it is a nice thought. I too want to know more about Lilly and Ray past relationship and why she has remained so hung up on him. I really want to see him again. Like you said TVFan, the potential for some great personal Lilly storylines.

[boxman]

Wow, frenchfan, for someone who hasn't seen the episode, you have really good insight into Lilly and Ray's relationship.

longislanditalian2 said:

The part i really liked most was when Ray told her that he was pround of her becoming a cop , the look on Lilly's face was priceless. It was like all this time nobody even told her that they were proud of her , this what she needed to hear the most.

Folks, (and InsideR), about seven/eight years ago, through friends I met a young woman. We got to know each other about a month before she moved to NYC, I helped her move there, and we spent a few days together over in Manhattan. Nothing serious, both of us were kinda 'testing the waters', so to speak, especially considering that anything serious meant a long-distance relationship.

Well, back in January I was getting my hair shampooed for a hair cut. I'm walking back to my salon chair--and lo and behold, is this young lady getting her hair cut! Within two minutes we talk about what each other is doing career-wise; that she got married, moved back to Philly, and is expecting their first kid; and I told her how I finished college over the years. As both of us were there to get our hair done, we had to cut the conversation short.

Look, in less than two minutes, we learned more about each other than Ray or Lilly did when they had an entire night together. What took up so much of their time that they didn't have any kind of conversation?? Weird. Especially since these two were far more serious about each other than me and my lady friend.

I got problems with how Ray compliments her about her acheivements at such a late point in time, and in my view, only when she's kicking him out of her life. Silly. Selfish. I complimented and congradulated my friend instantly of how her life is. Within two minutes, folks.

Why is Lilly's life so uninteresting to Ray that it took him twelve hours to congratulate her on her acheivements?? In my view, he just wants her as a trophy chick; some blonde that hangs on his back so he can show off to the other bikers on the road. He ain't interested in her personally, nor how her life has developed, otherwise all this conversation would have happened much, much earlier. That's why I call Ray a dog. The writers have a lot to do to convince me otherwise.

And what is up with Lilly? Clearly, they spent the night together. Why doesn't she know until the next morning that he only has another day in Philly, that he runs the repairshop? She's a strange character to me. No girlfriends to hang out and confide with? Just two cats? Again, weird.

Keep Ray in the show if you want to keep Lilly a troubled person; I got no problem with that. Heck a lot of great movie detectives such as Deckard from Blade Runner, Tom Cruise in Minority Report, and so on and so forth all had flawed personalities and weaknesses. But as the story stands at the end of this episode, Ray's pretty face doesn't do anything for me; I think he's pretty self-absorbed and a bad choice for Lilly or any woman wanting a serious relationship.

Needless to say, after all this ranting, I do appreciate that the writers go into each character's personal life. Heck, I kept wondering for years what kind of people Mulder and Sculley dated in the "X-Files", and why they didn't get it on with each other. But Ray as a long-term, serious prospect? Far-fetched.

[sonny]

I'm under the impression Lilly didn't know he was gonna be around one more night cos she said to him earlier something about him being on the road and clocking in for work. She thought he'd already be gone.
What I ask is that if he doesn't feel anything for her why bother going back to Philly to see her? I mean he's a pretty hot guy he's probably not short of women chasing him. Even if she contacted him, why bother to make the effort if he didn't feel something for her? Maybe it was just curiousity? But why did he go to her work and not just head back home and why did he look disappointed when she wouldn't skip work to go for a ride. And finally why did he show up at her door after she had said goodbye to him at work? IMO he's gotta have some feelings for her.

EDIT: I'm just about to post Lilly and Ray scenes in the Fan Art and Video section [episode clip request thread]

[longislanditalian2]

I think Ray has some feeling for lilly,On the other hand, we never know how lilly truly feels . Lilly is still well guarded when it comes to inner feelings. I think Ray thinks lilly is still the same girl that he met long ago . What ray doesn't know is that Lilly is extremely devoted to her job won't leave early for any reason. What the episode was lacking was a better explaination of whay made Ray out of all these years come back to philly to visit her, why not before? He should have told her to meet him somewhere other then her office ,with scotty standing right there. Scotty on other hand, was surprised that lilly was that type of girl to get on a Harley and drive off with some biker guy. I liked how protective of Lilly he is ... I think now Lilly and Scotty are on better terms meaning just friends. The ending completly threw me off , why on earth would lilly invite ray back to her house ? If she is giving him another chance how long is ray going to stay in town? Another question comes to mind, how come Lilly or Ray didn't talk about old times? At least the show could have shown a flashback to that time??


I think I've said enough

[boxman]

sonny said:

What I ask is that if he doesn't feel anything for her why bother going back to Philly to see her? I mean he's a pretty hot guy he's probably not short of women chasing him. Even if she contacted him, why bother to make the effort if he didn't feel something for her? Maybe it was just curiousity? But why did he go to her work and not just head back home and why did he look disappointed when she wouldn't skip work to go for a ride. And finally why did he show up at her door after she had said goodbye to him at work? IMO he's gotta have some feelings for her.

I agree, he's the kind of guy whom meeting women shouldn't be a problem. He wanted to see Lilly because he's on the rebound? An ex cheated on him or vice versa?? If either case is the scenario, again, not really the best person to get involved with too quicky, don't you think?

Oh, and sonny, I hope you are enjoying this debate as much as I am! I'm sorry to sound so cynical about the two, but hey, somebody's gotta keep y'all's feet on the ground.

We're getting let off early today, so I'm logging off at this point. Take care...see ya later!

[sonny]

I'm loving the debate boxman and I totally respect everyones opinions good or bad.

[longislanditalian2]

I'm stil up for this debate, maybe later..

[ewka]

So, ha ha ha, I finally watched Dog Day Afternoons!

First of all I'd like to say that I liked the case. Roween seemed to be so close to me. Don't know why, but she was just a normal girl who lived not so long ago. Yeah, definately I like not-so-old cases, too.

I don't believe that Ray slept on a couch... Maybe I'm so as experienced as other people, but it would be very weird to me. Especially since they are both adults and the smile on Lilly's face when she said "hey" is not going to delude me... :>

If such a dramatic thing like Lilly leaving her job at the end of a season happens, I swear, I'll do something I'd regret. Nooo, not possible... Ray also does not seem to be as romantic as I'd like Lil's lover to be... No, I don't like Ray. Dear writers, could you give us the next candidate to assess...? If he at least grabed her and kissed like he should after such a long time, eh. Apparently, Cold Case is supposed to be a "polite" series, because everything interesting takes place behind the closed doors to Lil's apartment or doesn't happen at all...

I loved the way the others teased Lilly about Ray:

Lilly: You been looking for me?
Scotty: Not me. Some dude on a Harley.
Lilly: Oh?
Scotty: Ray some or other.
Lilly: Oh.
Scotty: Must be something personal. Just saying...
Vera: Guy on a Harley, always sexy.
Jeffries: Sure there's nothing you wanna share, Lil?
Lilly: Yeah, he shows up again... tell him I'm dead.

-- that was gorgeous... :>

However, I want to see Ray back. Not even because I liked this character, but I'm no wrapped up in the thing between Lil and him ;] What -- will -- happen -- next?! I'd hurt someone if the left this thread like the left Vera's losing weight or Stillman's wife thing...

And one more thing -- boxman said that he had known more about his friend after 2 minutes than Lilly about Ray after the whole night. What if Lil did not want him to talk about things that happened? Maybe she asked him to focus on here-and-now only? Everyone has got the other sire of his/her personality which only few people know... You know what I mean, don't you?

Has anyone notice the Lilly's disappearing scarf when she had talked to Stillman and Scotty before Ray came? Heh, I am not going to pretend I noticed it by myself, just found the goof on www.tv.com but I still can't believe how blind I am ;]

[longislanditalian2]

I think Lilly is realizing that the past is over , people change and so should she she knows she can't change what happened in the past and living in it creates more sadness and anger. Ray wants her to be like when he met her, but ray doesn't know about the things that have happened to her. Right now she wants to get to know him better , maybe to settle down and have a relationship , but ray doesn't seem like the type to slow down ... Scotty doesn't know lilly at all , it's not like they even hang out after work just as friends and talk

[longislanditalian2]

I meant have a relationship as dating just for the record

[longislanditalian2]

I think having ray around would help Lilly a lot . They seemed to connect well with each other, she almost melted when he pulled up .................. In my previous post above there's more to sya

[sonny]

ewka said:

So, ha ha ha, I finally watched Dog Day Afternoons!

First of all I'd like to say that I liked the case. Roween seemed to be so close to me. Don't know why, but she was just a normal girl who lived not so long ago. Yeah, definately I like not-so-old cases, too.

I don't believe that Ray slept on a couch... Maybe I'm so as experienced as other people, but it would be very weird to me. Especially since they are both adults and the smile on Lilly's face when she said "hey" is not going to delude me... :>

If such a dramatic thing like Lilly leaving her job at the end of a season happens, I swear, I'll do something I'd regret. Nooo, not possible... Ray also does not seem to be as romantic as I'd like Lil's lover to be... No, I don't like Ray. Dear writers, could you give us the next candidate to assess...? If he at least grabed her and kissed like he should after such a long time, eh. Apparently, Cold Case is supposed to be a "polite" series, because everything interesting takes place behind the closed doors to Lil's apartment or doesn't happen at all...

I loved the way the others teased Lilly about Ray:

Lilly: You been looking for me?
Scotty: Not me. Some dude on a Harley.
Lilly: Oh?
Scotty: Ray some or other.
Lilly: Oh.
Scotty: Must be something personal. Just saying...
Vera: Guy on a Harley, always sexy.
Jeffries: Sure there's nothing you wanna share, Lil?
Lilly: Yeah, he shows up again... tell him I'm dead.

-- that was gorgeous... :>

However, I want to see Ray back. Not even because I liked this character, but I'm no wrapped up in the thing between Lil and him ;] What -- will -- happen -- next?! I'd hurt someone if the left this thread like the left Vera's losing weight or Stillman's wife thing...

And one more thing -- boxman said that he had known more about his friend after 2 minutes than Lilly about Ray after the whole night. What if Lil did not want him to talk about things that happened? Maybe she asked him to focus on here-and-now only? Everyone has got the other sire of his/her personality which only few people know... You know what I mean, don't you?

Has anyone notice the Lilly's disappearing scarf when she had talked to Stillman and Scotty before Ray came? Heh, I am not going to pretend I noticed it by myself, just found the goof on www.tv.com but I still can't believe how blind I am ;]

I noticed the scarf ewka. One moment it's around her neck the next it just hangs down, then goes back to being round her neck again!

You've raised some really good points ewka. I would have liked Ray to ahve been a little more romantic but he showed he wanted her by asking for that kiss.
I totally agree about the reason for the obvious lack of coversation between them before he shows up at her work. I mean, the conversation we didn't see was obviously all about her or they really didn't talk that much; just rode around on his bike then on getting home let their other emotions take over

Glad you want to see him back!

LLI - why didn't you just edit your post above then I don't want you to get told off.

[eurache]

:smile21: @ sonny

LII - try using the "modify" button, if you want to add or correct something.. thank you