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Post by longislanditalian2 on Apr 27, 2008 22:19:30 GMT -5
Either I'm reading too much into the character's minds or I'm losing it. I think Scotty and Lilly are so much alike especially during this recent episode. They both blame each other for losing someone they loved.
Scotty feels guilty for not being there for Elisa to save her and Lilly with her mother. They both hide behind their" Walls" not wanting someone to get in. The two of them want love a chance to be married and possibly have a family. They can't escape their past but need to deal with it.
The problem is with him he can't full deal with it and Lilly just pretends like everything is okay when it isn't. Her life is a mess he bascially has no life like her. The two live alone in their apartments ,never held onto a relationship for too long. Both were engaged in the past but somehow things got complicated for the both of them.
What they both realize this and try to help each other. Perhaps Scotty and Lilly might have a chance to get together. Who knows but they only trust but will this happen, I'm still hoping for it. It takes two to make a relationship work out, maybe Scotty will get some counseling and face this. Lilly too or maybe they'll try to open up and help each other. It's worth a shot.
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Post by lsr on Apr 27, 2008 22:25:39 GMT -5
I mean, these discussions/debates would not even happen if everyone agreed. And if that were the case, the show itself (with regard to the regular characters) would be terribly boring because if everyone saw things the same way, it would mean the writers & actors were not giving us any material to interpret. The characters would have to be awfully bland and one-dimensional, and the show would kind of suck. Yeah I totally agree. Though we are on such opposite ends of the spectrum with our interpretations, it's fun to go back and forth about what we think about different scenes and what means what to whom. It's not really that I don't respect that there are other ways to view certain scenes, it's just when it is so clear in my own head, I can't possibly see it any other way. Does that make me close-minded though? Cause I mean, I don't want to kill the non-shippers over it, I just see what I see. (Where is dr phil when you need him?  ) Using tonight as an example, I didn't pick up any especially shippy moments for L&S (other than the fact that Lilly knew what was bothering Scotty and how he was taking this case personally because of Elisa - not necessarily shippy but it all adds on to the idea that she knows him so well that she can read into his behaviour and thoughts - just not when it comes to his thoughts/feelings about her lol but I digress) ... I guess my point is (I think I was trying to make one somewhere here lol), I am capable of seeing that not all scenes between them are oozing shippiness all the time. And I know that not all Scotty's looks necessarily mean "I want to jump your bones"..................... just most of them do ;D  (Just a sidenote I was thinking of during the commercials: I actually do think it has come across Lilly's mind that Scotty might have a thing for her but she constantly just pushes it aside not allowing herself to accept it. Just like in "The Road" after that comment about getting 'a piece of that' came up... she acknowledged what they were talking about when the camera showed her face and then she had to immediately dismiss it. (I mean, not that she would go into that when John Smith/or anybody! is in the back seat anyway but it's just an example of her unwillingness to think about...well anything... regarding her personal life) Oh I know what you're saying. I definitely don't want it to turn into the "Scotty&Lilly" show either. But they don't need to do that to have them together, though, imo. I want it to stay as it is now but just with that extra little element on the side. One thing I was just wondering about, yankee; Having spoken to non-shippers on other boards, they indicated they would be more likely to accept a Lilly/Scotty relationship if TPTB were to leave the 'get-together' part until the final season. I was just wondering what your thoughts were in that scenario? I mean, there is no way it would be in danger of ruining the show at that point since they would be ending anyway and I still would want it to remain CC as is with that part on the side but I was just curious, as a non-shipper, if that would make you more willing to see them as a couple? :::Know that I'm not trying to "convert" you or anything such as that - simply a hypothetical question.::: Oh I'm positive I'm silly. Don't worry, you can say it. I know it sounds like such a trivial thing to argue over when you step back but I suppose when you're there and involved in the discussion it can just get away from you and launch into something you didn't intend to happen. My issue back then was that the hostility was alllll the time. I couldn't get any peace and was forever defending myself. I don't want to say that I didn't fight back. I did. But it seemed like they blamed me for even thinking the way I did. haha. No you're not. My bad. I should have explained a little more what I meant. I do this all the time to my friends and they hate me for it. I know in my own head what train of thought I'm on but don't bother to share it with anyone else and then they're like "wtf?" when I come out with some crazy-ass statement. lol. Anyway... What I meant with the parallels was when George calls and gets Scotty in the car. He talks to both Scotty AND Stillman while he has Lilly at gun point up in the attic (or whatever it is). The parallels that they were sooooo obviously making was what George references when he taunts each of them. For Scotty, it was a fiance that he couldn't save. For Stillman, it was a daughter. Lilly was so obviously supposed to reflect both of those roles as the next "fiance"-type Scotty couldn't save and the next "daughter"-type that Stillman couldn't. Annnnnd.... scene. |
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cellogal
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Post by cellogal on Apr 27, 2008 22:39:27 GMT -5
 Wow, lsr! I had never, ever thought of that. That's extremely intriguing. Good insight!!!
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Apr 27, 2008 22:46:18 GMT -5
My newest story I got into Scotty's mind trying to understand what he feels about Lilly. Know there is always hope the two will get together
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Post by lsr on Apr 27, 2008 22:52:07 GMT -5
Ah and something I thought about and would like to know: What do you think would have happened if Christina didn't hook up with Scotty but with another one of the detectives (even if it's a bit difficult to imagine)? Would Lilly's reaction have been the same? Ahhhh, alba there it is!!!! There's the 64 000 dollar question, *hee* I have thought many times about that and of course my answer would be 'no'. She may have been uncomfortable if, say, Nick had gone out with Christina but I don't believe she would have reacted quite the same way as she did with Scotty. And I think that is rooted in the fact that she has thought about him as a potential... potential at some point or another. LII2 - Very good points. I think at times L&S are very much alike in many ways. They both blame themselves for things they couldn't have done anything about; they both take things personally when it doesn't need to go there. Talking from the shipper angle, they are both scared to do anything about what's there between them. The only difference is why. Scotty's scared he's going to mess up something that he can't not have in his life - for a second/third time. Lilly's scared to show weakness by admitting she actually may need someone afterall.  boxmanTotally! I love that about the writing of CC. You kinda have to dig for things sometimes, as with all these character developments, but clues are there for you to discover and when you do, you get a feeling of 'oooooohhhh'. It's kinda like when you find that piece of a jigsaw puzzle that fell under the table and it fits perfectly! (I mean, after the cursing since you wasted an hour looking for it ) |
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Post by yankee1151 on Apr 28, 2008 9:11:45 GMT -5
Yeah. I think that's highly possible. I thought at first that he must be talking about Christina (and he well might have been, or more likely, the writers wanted to leave it up for interpretation who he was talking about) and specifically said that not only to show empathy for Lilly's situation but also as a kind of subtle dig at the same time. Because he knows he made a mistake with Chris, but Lil gave him so much crap for it and he maybe wanted to make the point that she's capable of messing up in a similar way. Though as far as we know, Joseph was just MR PERFECT and would never, ever have slept with a family member's fiance. And (as an aside) I have no doubt that had Chris been in the picture when Joseph was around, he would have gotten her and Lil to reconcile. Because he was a SAINT!!! Ahem, sorry. Did I mention I hated Joseph? Once or twice, maybe? But it actually makes more sense that he would have been referring to Ana, because of the obvious parallels (getting too personally involved in a case). Also, the events of "Sanctuary" were quite recent at the time, so Ana (and Scotty's guilt/remorse) would have been fresh in his mind. Whereas he might not ever want to even ALLUDE to Christina within a 10 mile radius of Lilly ever, ever again. That scene was cute, and certainly a positive step for their friendship. I still don't think there was anything shippy going on, though. I don't know, maybe it's because I say "it's killing me" when I'm in pain (physically) too. And I don't have to have a broken bone to say it. Hell, I could have a paper cut and be all "my finger's killing me!" Maybe Scotty and I are just drama queens. ;D Aaaand I've officially gone off the deep end analyzing this one damn scene from an episode that I didn't even particularly like. Interesting... never really thought about it. On the one hand, I might be willing to accept it more readily because like you said, it couldn't really "ruin" the show if done when it's already ending... BUT at the same time, I think I'd be really disappointed if they went out like that. Because then we wouldn't get to see them break up OR have time to convince us that they really do belong together. We, the viewers, would just be meant to assume that they lived happily ever after or some s**t like that. And as much as I want Lilly to be happy (and hell, I hope Scotty finds happiness too) that's not what I have in mind. So if our last image of L & S is as a couple, with little to really "back it up"... eh. If they're gonna do it, let them have a fling and get it out of their systems (if it is, in fact IN their systems) OR give it time to really develop so that non-shippers can come to accept it and actually believe it. Because if they leave it for the end, I will just not be convinced they're doing it for any other reason but to build ratings for the final episodes. And maybe they should let cellogal write it because in her fic, L & S as a couple do not make me want to vomit. Much. Ok, I see what you're saying. But I think George was just trying to get to these guys on a personal basis much like he did in "Mind Hunters." Remember when he brought up Jeffries' wife? And he did it to Lilly herself with her own "bad experience." So while your theory is plausible, I think the fact that he said those things to Stillman & Scotty on the phone was just an attempt to "hit them where it hurts" and rile them up so they would be liable to do something stupid. Yeah, he knew that Lilly was important to both of them, but I don't think he was implying anything about their specific relationships with her. Like, I think if Jeffries was on the other end of the phone, he would have hit him with the wife thing again, too. And if anyone thinks Jeffries wants Lil... hmm, come to think of it, now THAT would be an interesting storyline. But of course, it made way more sense to have Stillman and Scotty in that spot as they are the closet to her both personally and professionally. |
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Post by lsr on Apr 28, 2008 10:42:05 GMT -5
But it actually makes more sense that he would have been referring to Ana, because of the obvious parallels (getting too personally involved in a case). Also, the events of "Sanctuary" were quite recent at the time, so Ana (and Scotty's guilt/remorse) would have been fresh in his mind. Whereas he might not ever want to even ALLUDE to Christina within a 10 mile radius of Lilly ever, ever again. Wellll... ok. I'm willing to see it as one of those lines where everybody interprets whom he was talking about their own way. Ana seems reasonable but I definitely think the writer's did it on purpose for just that reason. They wanted to leave it open and let the shippers 'squee' a little bit (which we just looove doing ever so much) Oy. Lol. Agree to disagree! The way he says it, is too calm, too thought out, too weighted, too intimate for it not to have meant something else. And you have to ask, why is that even in there in the first place? I mean, why did Lilly even BRING up his hand at the end of that particular scene?? Too coincidental! Especially after all the throat-clearing action lmao. Welcome to shipperland! It's what we do. (or what I do anyway lol) Well, yeah I don't really want them riding off into the happy sunset or to be lying in bed gazing at the stars at the end of the last episode either (for some reason  ) but if they were to get together say mid-last season then have them work through the Lilly issues that are bound to come up (ie. Christina/loneliness/not letting herself be happy) resulting in a semi-breakup thereby making them work a little more to actually be together, I would be fine then by the series finale if they left it open for fans to take it one way or another. I just want an acknowledgment first to be able to do that. What we're getting now is awesome but as a shipper, all this angst has to be leading to something more than just more allusions in the finale. Right. It wasn't Jeffries. It was Scotty. I just mean that the writer's knew exactly what they were doing by having him be the one to answer the phone and him be one of the ones who was taunted when it involved Lilly. That could actually go for pretty much every questionable line/scene/whatever between them. The very fact that it is Scotty saying those things (coughit'skillinmecough) or being thrown into situations like in The Woods means something. And again, it was a season finale. (just..yaknow...sayin' ) *sigh* I would talk about this til I'm blue in the face so I'll stop now before I get too redundant. |
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cellogal
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Post by cellogal on Apr 28, 2008 11:47:19 GMT -5
I have something new for us to analyze to death...as we shippers are wont to do.
I was really surprised, but beyond thrilled, to see the Elisa issue surface again in this episode; how driven Scotty was by his own past to hopefully give this family a different ending than the one he had. I think he's accepted her suicide, but he's still coming to terms with it, and it's obviously still eating at him.
One thing I noticed (and this is related to him and Lilly, I promise!) is that at the end, when he saw Nancy, the lyrics to the song were as follows:
Why does my heart go on beating?
Why do these eyes of mine cry?
Don't they know it's the end of the world?
It ended when you said goodbye.
Now, those lyrics would clearly refer to him and Elisa, and this leads me to my question: What do you think they're trying to tell us? Do you think they're telling us that Scotty's still hung up on Elisa, that he's not hung up on her but not yet ready to move on, or if he's in that place where he's still grieving her, he still misses her, but he is ready to move on? In other words, is this some sort of closure for Scotty, or is this a sign that his heart still belongs to Elisa?
Boxman suggested in the episode thread that this one would have made more sense following "The Road" than last week's did, and I tend to agree...but what message do you think they're trying to convey when you combine what happened in "The Road" with this one?
Annnnd....discuss.
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Apr 28, 2008 11:58:07 GMT -5
I think Lilly is trying to make sense of her own life but she and Scotty both need to help each other, if anyone wants to read my lastest fic it deal with the aftermath of this episode. I think Scotty blames himself too much for everyone's problems, he's paranoid in someway that he is the reason for Lilly's shooting or the fact he didn't stop her from going into work the day after her mother had died.
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Post by yankee1151 on Apr 28, 2008 12:31:58 GMT -5
Now THAT is a land I do NOT wish to venture in... I'll talk about it, but I ain't drinking the kool-aid! ;D And there goes my lunch. (insert puking smilie here) Of course, he's her partner. I don't deny that they have a closer relationship than either of them have with any of the others. The scene made sense, I just don't think it was shippy. I'll give you "Stalker," you're not gettin' "Joseph" or "The Woods" from me! I totally saw this entire episode as giving Scotty his closure WRT Elisa. I do not, however, think this signals the beginning of something with Lilly. |
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Post by longislanditalian2 on Apr 28, 2008 12:35:58 GMT -5
I think this episode is something to do with Lilly, Scotty does care for her a lot. They both can read into each other's thoughts, and understand each other. I don't want to it to go like what Mulder and Scully did, and have a baby also. There could be a scene where they just watch a movie or walk along the sidewalk together holding hands while laughing. Things that wouldn't kill this show.
Anymore than that would ruin it, but a kiss or a hug would be nice. I think it would nice to seem them together outside of work
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cellogal
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Post by cellogal on Apr 28, 2008 12:53:36 GMT -5
Oh, I don't, either. I was just wondering what was up with the Elisa throwback, because it came as a total surprise to me. Not that he shouldn't still be grieving/messed up, because there's no timetable on grief, and you never truly "get over" losing someone you love. But I saw "Start Up" as Scotty's closure with Elisa, so I was surprised that it would get a mention on the show, since it was so long ago. Obviously, in real life, closure comes in stages, and that may be what they were trying to portray here. I was just surprised. Very, very pleasantly surprised.
But, no, this doesn't signal the beginning of something with Lilly. It just seems clear from "The Road" that he has powerful feelings for her, and I was curious about how you all thought this Elisa stuff fit in with that.
Um...wow? Thank you!!! This makes my day; you have no idea.
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Post by maggiemarie on Apr 28, 2008 17:46:01 GMT -5
 hey everyone this is my very first post, and guess what.... i'm a HUGE shipper!!! since we're speaking of song lyrics did anyone else notice at the end of "the road" when we see scotty through the cell bars the song goes "But all i see is you and me, The fight for you is all I've ever known" could this be referring to scotty fighting for :)and defending lilly? Just a thought...
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Post by lsr on Apr 28, 2008 18:49:19 GMT -5
Omg. Nobody move.. I agree with yankee on something! ;D (btw, "The Woods" and "Joseph" have already been TOOK!  ) I'm also under the impression that this was supposed to give him some kind of closure with Elisa but not imply that Lilly was the next in line or anything. I thought it was interesting when the lady says to him at the end "My mother did say goodbye, you know.... I just didn't know it at the time." Maybe Scotty can take that as a way to comfort him; not forget her but move on from her finally. Yeah, it's very interesting when sandwiched together but I have to say I don't think they were really coming outright and saying anything with it. Not that I wouldn't be happy if they were. .....Now what we can assume and infer on our own ...whole other bag of potatoes! (Idahoan too!!! ) More fuel to the fire ;D It's quite refreshing! You don't know what you're missing! Me too, cellogal! I didn't even pick up on the connection in the beginning and then suddenly realized what was going on in Scotty's brain and why it was more important to him. It's been so long since they mentioned it, I wasn't even considering Elisa. (then again, the writer's strike may have had something to do with it) Hi maggiemarie!!! Welcome to the Shipper Thread! I love meeting new shippers! I did notice that song played at the end of "The Road" and liked it very much! And I'd like to think that what you suggested is why they chose that song for the ending - oh how sweet that would be but CC being CC you would never know for sure sure. Damn they're good. LII2 - Yeah, I thought X-Files got a little too crazy at the end with their baby-makin' plot but you kinda expected the weirdness with that show. But yeah, I don't want the Lilly and Scotty relationship to touch on babies or even marriage as I just don't think it would suit the tone of the show. Besides which, given how slowly the developments for the characters move, I highly doubt there would be time to get that far unless the show stays on the air for another 10 years. |
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Post by yankee1151 on Apr 29, 2008 11:01:41 GMT -5
LOL, stop the presses! I'm glad we could find some common ground. But you'll have to pry "The Woods" and "Joseph" from my cold, dead, hands... ;D Eh, on second thought, you can have "Joseph." I don't care. Entirely too much Joseph in that ep for me. That one scene (however you interpret it) does not make up for the absurdity of the rest of it. "You're alive!" "Should I leave it unlocked?" "No, I can break in if I have to." wink, wink. (WHY isn't there a puking smilie to insert here??) That whole episode actually made me long for the days of ADA Kite and his pock-marked neck. Oh, Lilly. Ew. Kool-aid is wayyy too sugary. Sickeningly sweet. Puke-inducing, actually. Welcome, maggiemarie. Yikes, the numbers are growing in here. Exactly what is in that kool-aid? Actually (and here's yet another thing we agree on, lsr - I think this must be a sign of the apocalypse) I do concede that "The Road" was a very shippy episode, all around. That song was perfect for the end as it pertained to Brenda and her man, but it's really easy to see it as pertaining to L & S (if you think that way, lol). I actually really really liked that ep and thought the shippy moments were true to character, etc. I'm totally fine with that stuff. It's the implication that things between them might be taken to another level that makes me twitch. Cool. Keep writing, I'll keep reading. |
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Post by lsr on Apr 29, 2008 12:31:22 GMT -5
This should suit you just nicely:  Well look at that, more common ground... I hated Joseph too. And I couldn't agree more about that line... (... ... oh excuse me... ) But I definitely didn't want to go back to wickdick Kite either. What a weeny he was. Nope, she needs to look at the guy that has been at her side for 4 years. And besides, Scotty would never be that cheesy! May I introduce, "The Kool-Aid Slammer". Vodka. KoolAid. I'll refrain from giving the actual recipe as I don't want to get in trouble with the mods (please don't ban me, RichE!) but 1 of those, you're good to go, yankee! *Suddenly hears The Doors' "The End" surrounding her* Wow, that's a brave admission from a non-shipper! I'm impressed. Thank you for being able to say it when I know a billion other non-shippers for different shows who would die first.
Oh... and we were so close to holding hands and skipping down the sidewalk. |
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Post by qirjanran on Apr 29, 2008 14:26:39 GMT -5
i thought slipping had a bit of scotty/lilly. compared to at least two weeks ago when we had nothing!  it was at least nice to see them interviewing the granddaughter and daughter together and in the interview room. AND, when lilly mentions alyssa- she realized why this case was hitting home with him and why it really was affecting him. and scotty was just awesome in this episode, i'm so glad that nancy's death wasn't a sucide and he got some closure and he saw her at the end. i can't believe the finale's the only one left!  hopefully it'll give us a good bit of lilly/scotty [but won't that eddie guy be in it?! grr] to keep us [ me!!!] satisfied until the new season!!! |
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Post by yankee1151 on Apr 29, 2008 16:14:08 GMT -5
Niiiice! Thanks. I have a feeling I'm gonna get a lot of use out of that one in this thread. You won't get any argument from me re: ADA Butthead. I just didn't have the same blinding hatred for him that I had for St. Joseph. Well, not many could be. Nachos are less cheesy than Kite. This actually makes it less appealing. Vodka is not my friend. Now, if we're talking rum... But somehow I doubt I'd have a taste for ANYTHING and kool-aid. Especially your particular brand of kool-aid. ;D Oh, give it time. I'll make ya see the light. I just wish she wasn't a total rag about it. I said this in the ep thread, but that little call-out was the pot calling the kettle black. I never thought I'd say this, but: shut up, Lilly. |
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boxman
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Post by boxman on Apr 29, 2008 17:45:28 GMT -5
This should suit you just nicely: Oooo.... *boxman starts scheming...* |
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cellogal
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Post by cellogal on Apr 29, 2008 18:38:08 GMT -5
Uh-oh. We gave yankee1151 a pukey face. This thread may never be the same.
I, too, am puzzling about Lilly asking Scotty about Elisa. I can't decide whether it was ballsy/hypocritical or ballsy/necessary. Probably some of both.
Lil, as so many have said, clearly has unresolved issues about, well, basically everything, so it's extremely hypocritical of her to point out to Scotty that he hasn't resolved Elisa's death yet, and for her to basically accuse him of taking the case seriously just because of his particular set of baggage, especially when she's been known to do the exact same thing. And she was ignoring evidence, which the Lilly Rush I know would never do.
On the other hand, it may be that she was just trying to force Scotty to look within and make sure that he was sticking with this case because of the case and the evidence, not just because of his Elisa baggage. That's something a good friend does: forces you to take a look at your motives and make sure they're as they should be.
I personally believe she is the ONLY one that could have said that to him and gotten away with it. Well, maybe Stillman. I was thrilled that Elisa's name was mentioned, but jaw-on-the-floor shocked at the way Lilly just dropped it out there. A very interesting scene.
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Wow, lsr! I had never, ever thought of that. That's extremely intriguing. Good insight!!!
Discovering these parallels and external references is kinda like finding "easter eggs". 
) but if they were to get together say mid-last season then have them work through the Lilly issues that are bound to come up (ie. Christina/loneliness/not letting herself be happy) resulting in a semi-breakup thereby making them work a little more to actually be together, I would be fine then by the series finale if they left it open for fans to take it one way or another. I just want an acknowledgment first to be able to do that. What we're getting now is awesome but as a shipper, all this angst has to be leading to something more than just more allusions in the finale. 
